Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:00:01]:
As I said to you last time, this is my first podcast, so I think it’s it’s a very timely one, though. So I I guess my question is, I think that, you know, our conversation today, if we steer it towards migration and questions of migration in response to and this is a little bit towards the book, is that, you know, I’m I’m trying to recategorize these moments of migration because the previous officers said there’s only been 3 peak periods of patient migration. But what I say is that there’s been so many events that happened in Haiti that caused migration, including the one today where, unfortunately, you know, while Haiti has been receptive to immigrants from war, including Jews from the Holocaust. The United States helped deliver to Haiti. You know, other countries have not been as friendly. If you see what’s going on in the Dominican Republic, where they’re they’re ousting Haiti Haitians in fear of repercussions, I I think it’s something where I think this is part of that dialogue. And I think if we center that, I think it’d be something really cool.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:01:01]:
Welcome to the show, doctor Andrew McGahn. We are going to discuss your dissertation today and hopefully some teasers about your upcoming book from this dissertation. And the dissertation is titled Hades’ First Families and the Transatlantic World 1791-1880.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:01:21]:
Thank you so much for having me, Patrick. I’m I’m looking forward to discussing this today with you.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:01:25]:
Who who are the 3 first generation Haitian families you discussed in this monograph, and how is how is how does it reflect the sort of broader migration issues, you know, between Haiti and the United States?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:01:41]:
Yeah. So the the fur Haiti’s first generation, the way I categorize it, is that it’s these first families that emerge post independence, so post 1804. And where do they end up? And, of course, they have these kind of legacies of the Haitian Revolution. And so as an example, I use some of the more documented families, which includes the family of Pierre Toussaint, who is a prominent barber in New York City, who we’ll be discussing today, his wife, Julien Toussaint, who has a broad familial network throughout the United States from Maryland all the way up to Connecticut. I talk about the Christophe family, so not Henri Christophe, but his wife, daughters, supposed brother, as well as the son, Pierre Toussaint, Isaac Louverture, as well as who I would argue is kind of his adopted son, placid Clerc, and their experiences in France. So it’s not just the United States, but this kind of Atlantic world kind of look at these families and how they survive and their continued relationships and identity back to Haiti.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:02:47]:
From the year Bois Caie Ma started in 17/91 to 18/80, that’s 89 years by my count. Why did you stop at 18/80 in this dissertation?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:03:00]:
It’s really interesting that these individuals, despite being in the 19th century, lived so long. So the last historical actor who I write about, who who outlasts everybody else is Fanny Monetitia, And she dies at the age of 103 in Baltimore. And I had to double check this because I was like, really? She lives counter 3 years, and the the Department of Health at Baltimore had a whole document about her, and her death certificate said that she was but she she passed away at the age of a 103. And so I thought, you know, this first generation, I wanted to get kind of the the oldest person within that kind of timeline, but I also wanted to start with kind of the birth of the nation of Haiti, which is 1791 through the revolution because a lot of these people are part of that revolutionary experience.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:03:50]:
So what can what’s her what was her name again, and and which family was she related to?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:03:55]:
So this is Fanny Montpensier. She is the cousin of Juliet Toussaint. Okay. And, yeah, she’s she comes to Baltimore between we don’t have the exact date for her, but she’s first documented Baltimore around 1809. So between 181810, she was kinda part of that generation of haitian that ended up in Baltimore.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:04:16]:
So since we’re going to discuss the Toussaint family for this episode, it’s worth noting that what is the it was a confusion for me at first. Pierre Toussaint does not have any relationship with Toussaint Louverture too. Right?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:04:33]:
Right. So it it’s funny. Some of the authorship, I would say, in the 19 fifties through 19 eighties said that Pierre Toussaint was such a rebel that he decided to take the surname Toussaint after Toussaint Louverture.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:04:49]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:04:49]:
That’s incorrect. It’s his father and him were born around All Saints Day or Toussaint. Mhmm. And so, therefore, they have the surname Toussaint.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:04:59]:
You said you said I had to accomplish 6 things in this dissertation. Let’s kinda summarize them, and we’ll dig deeper into each conclusion later, in this episode and and other episodes to follow. The first conclusion is Haitian transnational mobility in the 19th century. What do you what do you wanna tell us about that?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:05:19]:
One of the things that historians it’s really kind of an answer to the prominent historical narrative that’s been extremely racially driven the past, I would say, 100 years. There’s been some really good advocates that have fought against this, but I I wanted to kinda throw in my 2¢. But one of the main things that was said was that one of the reasons why Haiti is the way it is, and that’s been the big question a lot of scholars have gone is like, what’s going on with Haiti? Why is Haiti the way it is presently? And a lot of people have said it’s because it was isolated. And, basically, Haitians stayed on the island, did not communicate with the rest of the world. And my thing is, no. There are several Haitians that are transnational, that move throughout the Atlantic world, that have means, that influence people of power. And so that’s my first conclusion is that based upon this evidence that we are seeing a transnational mobility of Haitians in the 19th century. It continues on the present

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:06:18]:
day. The second conclusion, you talked about satellite communities abroad.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:06:23]:
Yeah. So these satellite communities so, basically, these communities of Haitians that end up in major port cities throughout the Atlantic world, mainly in the United States, would be New Orleans, of course, Baltimore, Charleston, Savannah, Norfolk, Virginia, Baltimore, New York City, and Philadelphia, and Boston as well. Kinda these places where Haitians end up. And so these communities interact with each other as well as with families, particularly in Port au Prince, Cap Haitian, as well as Lacan. As well as there are Haitians in London, there’s Haitians in Paris, there’s Haitians in Bordeaux, and as well as well, we’ll talk about next week or our next episode, Haitians are in Italy as well in major port cities that are interacting all the way back with Haiti. So these communities support each other. These communities interact with each other, and they are a severely under researched aspect of the African diaspora.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:07:26]:
So why do you what’s the cause of that? Before we move to the 3rd, conclusion you draw in this monograph, what what do you what what do you think accounts for for this, I guess, blindness or slippage in the scholarship regarding those particular families? What do you can think counter for that?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:07:44]:
I think it’s racism and scholarship for one thing. I think it’s something where we still see that in terms of international diplomacy today. It’s doctor j Blinken who was in Haiti just last week or not Haitian. Sorry. He was in Jamaica last week talking with CARICOM, said that there was more deaths in the current events that are occurring in Haiti than there were in the Ukraine. So 4 months of Haitian unrest versus the entire UK Ukraine crisis. Yet when we’re talking about coverage in the news, when we’re talking about support from international communities, you don’t have as much attention to those haitian descent than those from the Ukraine. And that’s something that you see throughout the historical scholarship as well is that white historical actors that are migrants get that coverage while those that are of the African African descent are not getting that kind of coverage or support or part of the historiography.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:08:36]:
I think that’s changing, though.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:08:38]:
The third conclusion you draw here is and this one of of many fascinating, chapters is the cultural retention. We’ll talk about okra and different types of and my and my dress later. But what, the 3rd conclusion is cultural retention. Tell us summarize that one for us.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:08:56]:
Yeah. So I I think it’s one of those things where also, one of the reasons why these families aren’t covered is that a lot of people have complained that there is a lack of documentation, and that’s something where some of the documentation is shown through these kind of cultural writings. Cultural retention is seen prominently in terms of sharing recipes. You’re talking about okra or gumbo, the different types of making gumbo, which I found to be quite fascinating. I think, my my committee was like, oh, man. It counter like cookbooks at this point rather than a haitian. But I think it’s one of those things where a lot of scholars of the diaspora are really looking at at religion, cooking, types of medicine, dress as a way of figuring out the experience, but also how these individuals and especially when you talk about migration or theories of Haitian, there is this discussion that people go and they assimilate. And one of the ways we find that those of Haitian descent are not assimilating is that they’re having these cultural retentions and talking about this in their writings and in the cookings and how they dress and how they wear and how they’re trying to find these items that make them feel at home.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:10:06]:
And I think that cultural revolution aspect is is probably one of the, one of my favorite parts of writing this work.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:10:12]:
The 4th is the first Haitian family’s survival networks. You talk about kinship ties, the rule of the Catholic church, local governments, white allies. What do you wanna, tell us about that?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:10:25]:
Yeah. Definitely. I I I do going back real quick to the cultural revolution thing, though, I think about politicizing it. I think cultural revolution has been used in terms of politicization, though. I think when you’re talking about, like, Papa Doc using voudon as a unifying factor. Mhmm. When you’re talking about the current crisis in Haiti where one of the leaders said, our ancestors used machetes, now we use machine guns. I think when you’re talking about these kind of allusions to the past, I think it’s something that it can be used as a weapon, but we need to find spaces to celebrate culture and then instead of weaponizing it.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:10:58]:
So Right. I think it’s something that I’m really happy you’re doing with this podcast. So thank

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:11:03]:
you.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:11:03]:
But going to the 4th point, I think just like culture, there are ways that people survive. There’s people that that people find joy with family, so kinship. So this is something where Pierre Toussaint doesn’t has a little bit of family in the United States, especially in New York. They rely a lot on Juillet’s family in Baltimore, and I think it’s something where a lot of people don’t find these ties enough, and I I’m so grateful that the Pierre Toussaint collection has a lot of these letters, so we cannot cover these kinship ties. But you see this as well as in France and Italy and Great Britain where a lot of these families are also at, that they have these extended networks. And a lot of people go, oh, they’re not related, but they’re cousins. I was talking yesterday with a colleague about one of my chapters, and they reminded me that, you know, when it comes to the African diaspora, our under the understanding of what family is and family relationships are different than what these Eurocentric relationships are, how we define marriage, how do we define children, adoption, extended family. You have former rivals of Toussaint Louverture, for instance, reaching out to his children to support them because they see them as Haitian and they also see them as an extended part of their family network.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:12:19]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:12:19]:
Catholic church I think faith takes a huge is a huge foundation for what builds community. It’s one of those things where when they’re trying to find these spaces, particularly in protestant America or protestant England, one of the places to find people that are French, people that are Haitian, people that speak the language, that have some similar culture is the Catholic church. And you see this with several people who are exiles that were forcibly removed from Haiti spending the majority of their time in the church. And a lot of people go, well, they’re praying. They’re being, you know, they’re being good Christians, but, also, it’s a way of making these networks, making these connections, finding this community. It’s a survival mechanism. In terms of government and white allies, I think one of the things that should not be neglected is that there are several white historical actors, actors, and there are several government officials who’ve breezed the wheels for change, whether that’s in terms of sustaining mobility, getting passports, making sure that people are treated fairly. And I I think a lot of times, these people kinda get glorified in other ways, but not in their relationship with the Haitian community.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:13:31]:
And I I will say going through several of these letters in the dissertation and as well as the forthcoming book, which is being augmented from the dissertation, You know, I’m finding these these white individuals, and I’m like, wait, they shouldn’t be interacting with these people. They’re not they’re not part of this this network. And I’m like, oh, wait. They are. In fact, they’re they’re doing something really cool, and I think it it it adds to this kind of holistic approach Mhmm. To history where we’re we’re finding these people that may be important in one way, but we never realized how crucial they were to the discussion of the Haitian experience.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:14:07]:
Mhmm. What about nationality, Haitian national identity. What do you what do you wanna say about that?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:14:16]:
Yeah. Just like in terms of kind of familial relationships and how they’re defined differently within the diaspora, Haitian identity is really, really interesting and especially in 19th century. When we’re looking at how does Haitian, especially through several different governments. So, you know, you’re talking about, you know, from Louverture to Dessalines to Christophe to Petion to Boyer and so on, you know, through several different interim governments that take place in in the forties fifties. You know, with every single new constitution, there is this new idea of what it means to be Haitian. But when you’re talking about those that are beyond the Haitian nation state, that are abroad in the Atlantic world, their idea of what it means to be Haitian stays, you know, stay somewhat stagnant because they’re not involved with certain certain ways, they’re not involved with the kind of rewriting of these constitutions. They’re just like, hey, I’m Haitian. I’m abroad.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:15:19]:
I keep sending money to family. I keep trying to get back to Haiti as much as I can. So these these people, they’re really just these Haitians abroad that are are trying to find how to define citizen within this American experience or this French experience, the British experience, the Italian experience, but also trying to maintain that permission to return home. Almost every person I I talk about writes to the Haitian government at one time or another and asks for a passport. And a lot of times, the Haitian government has to weigh well, have they been have they been paying their dues? Have they been giving money to family? Have they been supporting Haitian government? Are they truly still considered to be Haitian? Because they’ve been receiving maybe a pension from the French government or paying American taxes or something like that. And so I I think that this narrative complicates what national identity is, but helps us understand Haitian identity in the diaspora. And, I mean, it makes me go back to the early 2000 where there first emerged a diaspora tax, where any Haitian who wanted to be considered a resident abroad had to give money to the Haitian government. It was a way to kinda fundraise for the government to make sure there was enough money.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:16:33]:
And I think I think this this kind of narrative, these Haitians abroad, really adds to this discussion.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:16:40]:
Do you see a difference between the Haitian diaspora between 17/91 to 18/80 that you covered and the Haitian diaspora today? You don’t have to I know that’s not the whole basis of what but actually, it is. In some ways, it is because you’re talking about migration. Right? So what’s the difference that you see or comparisons you can make about how you see Haitians today regarding their national identity versus the the Haitian diaspora in the community that you covered in the period that’s under discussion right now?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:17:16]:
Yeah. You know, and that allows me to plug my, my my database. So I have a database that’s called Haitians abroad, and my my project is starting with the years of the dissertation when the communities discuss the dissertation or some that some individuals that are not even included in the book. So I really want to to help others understand this kind of dynamic community of not just these three families, but many, many families that stories have not been told. But the goal eventually is to kind of bring it to to almost the present in terms of Haitian migration because I think it is part of this longue duree and migration history. And I would say that, you know, these individuals that I talk about in the dissertation are a lot of them are forcibly removed from Haiti. Majority of them do not choose to go, whether they’re forced into exile, they’re forced through slavery to the United States, Prisoners of war, they’re taken to France or throughout kind of the European and and West African sphere. But I think it’s something where this kind of forced removal or understanding of diaspora shifts a little bit.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:18:24]:
Right? Because with every single conflict that occurs in Haiti throughout its history or regime changes or economic crisis or agricultural crisis or things like that, there are people that are choosing to move. And I think it’s something where it has not been discussed as well or placed within history narrative within this kind of long duration enough, And I’m hoping that this work, especially when it when it’s in book form, which gets a little more specific with this, you know, will will help others kind of navigate this kind of long migration in and out of Haiti. Because there’s moments that that Haitians do return. And there’s moments that those of the African American community try to make their life in Haiti. There’s times, like, we’ll talk about where one of the Louverture families offers the American government land for emancipated slaves during the American civil war to come to Haiti. You know, there there is this movement not just out, but movement to Haiti that I think is something that also has been neglected.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:19:24]:
Okay. Cool. I think this is a good enough teaser, so so people will have to wait for your book. So the last, conclusion I’d love for you to summarize, and I love this phrase. You say 1804 was the beginning of the Haitian Revolution, not the end of it.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:19:43]:
Yeah. This came out of conversation actually with my my dissertation adviser, Jeffrey Curriti. So all love and shout out go to him on on that discussion about how to phrase it. But I I will say that, you know, the Haitian Revolution, a lot of people, especially in in the field of history, kinda capped the the Haitian revolution at that point. But, you know, there are so many repercussions. And I I would say, you know, this work is not the answer to it all. But I I think it it’s something where, I it invites scholars to consider not just the conflict, you know, not just military history, not just the French removal from Haitian, but, you know, there are so many different things that are occurring. And when we talk about Haitian Revolution, how do we define revolution? It’s something that I I I wouldn’t define the revolution by just the battles that occur, not just by the treaties that occur, but the people that were involved in this and their and how this changed their lives.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:20:43]:
And I would argue that the Haitian Revolution, you know, does not end in 18/80, and I would even argue that the Haitian Revolution may not even be over today in certain ways. And so I I think it’s something where I really hope that scholars of Haiti and the Haitian Revolution continue to examine the repercussions of this conflict and and the reactions from several governments, especially in terms of migration and trade, I think is something that really has been the surface has only been scratched on that discussion. And I think there’s a lot of scholars, especially there’s a whole panel going on at at University of Pennsylvania right now or Penn State in terms of discussing the indemnity and all of that stuff, all the repercussions of that as well. And that’s something that I I really wanna celebrate other scholars that are doing this work. But but it’s it’s beyond just the indemnity. It’s beyond just, you know, movements. It’s it’s really, at the end of the day, looking at these people and examining the social history. I think we’ll examine truly the the repercussion of the Haitian Revolution and how the Haitian Revolution is not over by 1804.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:21:49]:
And that’s fascinating too because I had the doctor Chelsea Steber. I had the I I had her on the show for, like, the first part. We’re gonna actually resume that again, I think, back in May to sort of finish a book, the Hades paper war. And one of the things that she’s she she talks about in there is is is this sort of slippage in the scholarship about the inevitable republic. So if you look at Haiti as, you know, 1804 and you stop there, then you’re going to draw a sort of the skewed perspective rather than seeing it as sort of this long experiment, including, you know, all these many constitutions are just, you know, a that way as a project rather that in 1804, boom, you know, Haiti became the first black republic, which is actually wrong. Right? Because it’s 1806 when that happened. So, she discussed that in-depth. And then when I read this phrase where you said 1804 was the beginning of the Haitian revolution, doctor Stieber’s book also came to mind as well too.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:22:55]:
So you you all are onto something here.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:22:58]:
So we are both part of the same, slavery reading group at Howard University when she was a Catholic. So she she and I she and I crossed paths. So great minds think alike, and we’ve had very many conversations about this. So I’m I’m I’m excited. I’ve read her work, and I I truly appreciate it.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:23:15]:
Man, I’d love to be a fly on the wall with my microphone, you know, with you 2, talking about that. Okay. Let’s start with the patriarch of the Toussaint family, Pierre Toussaint. What do you what do you wanna talk about as far as as far as Pierre Toussaint? And specific actually, what I would like for you to talk about is the scholarship. You’re not happy with how he’s been portrayed in the scholarship.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:23:39]:
Yeah. So let let me start

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:23:40]:
fail them because they’re not taking the full measure of the of the man in his social milieu.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:23:45]:
Oh, gosh. No. So I I’ll I’ll start with that, and then I’ll introduce Pierre Toussaint, because I think it’s something that’s important to understand where the scholarship began and where where it’s been heading. The original biographer was a a white friend of those that managed history funds. So one of the things that Pierre Toussaint did in his lifetime was investing, and you need to have a white advocate that will help you invest. And this was the Shylar family or Shylar family. And the this this family is made famous, of course, through the musical Hamilton. So this is the the Schuyler history, Schuyler sisters, and he did their hair.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:24:19]:
And so Mary was a very close advocate, and her son was kind of Pierre Toussaint’s go to when it comes to doing real estate dealings and things like that. And we’ll talk about that later in the podcast, I’m sure, because that’s how he made his money. And so after he dies, the papers are given to the family because his wife is dead. They don’t have any children, and they give it to they give it to Mary’s cousin who writes the first biography of Pierre Toussaint. And so Excuse me.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:24:48]:
I assume it, professor. So by papers, you mean, like, all his correspondences. Right?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:24:53]:
All of his correspondence, all of his legal documents are basically given to this family, and they they sift through it. And some of them are are contained. Some of them are lost to history. So it’s it’s something where it’s it’s it’s very interesting. So, it’s Hanif Faram Sawyer Lee is the cousin who who basically within the year of his death, the family says, hey. You wanna go through this paper? Because she had been writing about her family in New York, the extended Skyler family. She’s actually one of the family’s biographers. And so she is basically using these papers to glorify Pierre Toussaint’s white haitian, basically how he’s kind of this, quote, unquote, noble minded Negro, and this is right after Uncle Tom’s Cabin comes out.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:25:36]:
And basically, they’re like, hey, Uncle Tom’s Cabin comes out. It’s making gangbusters in terms of selling off the shelves. Let’s do the same thing with Pierre Toussaint.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:25:45]:
And what year are we talking here?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:25:47]:
So he dies in, I believe, 50 I believe 53, and she she writes the book in 54. So the book’s published in 15

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:25:55]:

54. Okay.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:25:55]:

1854. And so I believe it’s 1851 is when uncle Tom’s cabin’s written. So they’re basically seeing the market for for books about basically subservient black men, who have great relationships with, like, white community. And this is where the kind of myth of Pierre Toussaint as as a good Catholic person of color comes into play. And I’m not discounting that he wasn’t a great member of the community, but he you know, and he gave the cherry, raised money, did some wonderful things. But that’s not the whole character. That’s not his whole experience. And I think that’s something where he’s been kind of distilled down to this one thing.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:26:37]:
And since then, there’s been a lot of writings that really focus on him and his white counterparts. And the one thing I will say is that these papers eventually end up in the New York Public Library. I kind of question why they’re not the Schomburg because that would be a better place for them. But but, you know, when you’re when you’re talking about these papers, people have gone to them just to look at this person who’s nominated for Catholic sainthood. And I think he’s gonna be a saint within the next few years. I think him as well as one of the ablate sisters of Providence I talk about, mother Lang, are also going to be probably the first two black Catholic saints. So it’s very interesting to see these 2 people that were contemporaries, knew each other, and helped each other out as being part of this, but they’ve both been kind of saddled with this kind of, you know, caricature just being subservient and helping the white community out when really

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:27:34]:
basically, the Haitian version of uncle Tom. Right? He’s been portrayed.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:27:38]:
Exactly. Exactly. So it’s the Haitian version of of uncle Tom, and I I think it’s something where when you go through his writings or writings of those that care about him and are inquiring about him, you see a whole different character. And you see somebody who is patient and proud. A lot of people I was literally having a conversation on the other day, someone’s like, oh, yeah. He’s he’s like the epitome of the black New Yorker. And I’m like, he didn’t consider himself that. If you go through his writings, which, you know, by the way, love New York.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:28:09]:
I got family New York. But but he’s he’s not he’s not of New York. He’s really considering himself to be part of this wider Haitian community, and you see that in his writings. And so just to kinda counter and so, basically, my writings is to counter this. And and by the way, thank you, Patrick, for sending me that article from the, from The New York Times just, well, last week, 2 weeks ago Mhmm. Where this is that continuation of that kind of public perception of him, you know, and and celebrating him as somebody part of the black African American experience. But, you know, it’s it’s something where we need to talk about more who he is. And so kinda just to give a little background to him, he’s born enslaved.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:28:50]:
Him and his family had been part of the Bera family’s kind of, servant class for for many generations. One of the things I found to be quite interesting is his his grandmother, Zenobe, is actually one of the first transnational Haitian I found in in my research. And she is somebody who basically goes to France with the children of the Berhoff family as they’re educated. And for doing several transatlantic journeys from but from Haiti to, to Paris, he had obtained her freedom. And she remained close to the to the plantation throughout the, Haitian revolution.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:29:29]:
So as of what it’s it’s it’s Zenobi. Right?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:29:33]:
Mhmm. Zenobi.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:29:34]:
Grand grandmother.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:29:35]:
His grandmother.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:29:36]:
Yeah. Grandmother. And what year did she go in Paris to Paris? What year was that? I I can slip me at the moment. Do you remember?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:29:44]:
So she she does this through, I wanna say, the 17 17 70, 17 eighties is when she does this. So on the kind of the eve of the Haitian revolution, she receives her freedom, but she remains tied to the haitian. And she’s in Saint Mark’s Paris, parish. But she manages the plantation for the family during the Haitian revolution. She becomes this kind of patriarch in that sense. And so, therefore, Pierre Toussaint and his family are are treated very well because of their their relationship with Inno Bay. And as a result, Pierre Toussaint is one of the 2 enslaved chosen to accompany the Baha family to New York. Mhmm.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:30:24]:
And he is taught to read. He’s taught to write in English and in French because they basically expect him to be doing a lot of the errands for the family. So this is one of those things of, you know, he’s not getting this education out of the goodwill of the family. They are wanting to use it in a sense. And it is through this that he’s he gains more and more mobility, and it’s fortunately, we have the historical records of this correspondence as well. And education is something that factors in the way he’s going to raise his adopted daughter, who is his niece. And so he comes to New York, and the Baugh family are have a little bit of savings. They rely on this kind of New York exchange network.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:31:07]:
So Baugh had been trading with New York merchants. Basically, the Haitian Revolution occurs. They go straight to New York in 17/97, and they establish a house there. But the plan is, like many planters, is to kind of watch the Haitian Revolution unfold. They don’t think it’s gonna take that long, and they’re gonna be able to go back and kinda continue this plantation system that had been going on for, you know, you know, for the last 100 or so years. And so that doesn’t happen. And so Barratt has to go back to Haiti, and he basically says, I don’t have much money. Let me use what I have at my disposal.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:31:43]:
And he apprentices Pierre Toussaint with a local barber. And he used to learn the ways of doing French hair, which is very popular at the time and can make a lot of money. And so Berhad goes to Haiti. He dies. But Pierre Toussaint makes a lot of money for the family, and he’s still enslaved. He’s emancipated on the deathbed of his mistress, Henri Elizabeth Boisard Houldin, in 17 9 not September. In 1807. And so he then basically, as an emancipated person of color, he’s continuing this profession of cutting hair, and he’s making a lot of money, and he’s making very good investments.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:32:22]:
So so he leaves he left Haiti around at 17 years old by my calculation. Right?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:32:30]:
Mhmm. There’s a lot of debate about when he was born, and there’s a lot of debate of when he comes to the United States. Mhmm. But by my by the records that I found, he is born let me double check. He’s born in 1781, and he, arrives in New York City in 1797. So, yeah, he’s 17 years old.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:32:50]:
So I have some die hard Haitian genealogy group about it’s probably about 10,000 now on Facebook. Right? So they they love they obsess about the archives. So can you before we go back to to Toussaint otherwise, can you talk about your experience in the archives, some of the key takeaways for you? Like, for example, how many of his papers do you have some idea of how many of his papers that related to Toussaint that currently in boxes at you said you said they should be at the Schomburg. But what are you looking at here in terms of numbers?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:33:27]:
Oh, golly. I mean, there are I went through a lot when I was looking at Julia alone. By the way, she has not been given the credit. She is due. But there was over 2 that’s the wife of Pierre Toussaint, but there was over 200 letters addressed to her by her Baltimore community. Mhmm. So that alone I mean, so I I believe it’s there are it’s on microfilm as well. So there’s 3 reels of microfilm.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:33:55]:
There there’s close to 700 to a 1000 documents and letters that are attributed to the Toussaint family. So, I mean, it is a trevor treasure trove. And, by the way, the correspondents are throughout the electric world. So and that’s one of the reasons why I really try to highlight the kind of American network that you have there in Baltimore, Montreal, and as well as several countries in the Caribbean, Chicago, as well as New Orleans. Mhmm. So so there it and there’s a lot of letters from his white family or not his white family. His his white enslavers in France that consider him to be family. And so a lot of historians have been paying attention to more of that white network, and I really wanted to counter that narrative.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:34:38]:
But there is so much stuff that yet to be uncovered about him.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:34:41]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:34:42]:
I will say this just as for your genealogy crew. It it’s something where, I I will say, in every single archive experience that I’ve had about those from Haiti and looking at family records, They have this been mislabeled, and that’s something that it’s been kind of my mission to let archivists know. Whenever I go into an archive, Oh, this Toussaint Santo Domingo. It’s really Saint Domingue or Haiti. Oh, this is, you know, Pierre Toussaint, but they put Toussaint in the obituary. Oh, this is, you know something has been slightly off that doesn’t allow genealogists and researchers unless you’re able spend a lot of time unfortunately, I had several wonderful grants and fellowships, spend time in some of these archives. But a lot of times, these archives are not built to answer these questions about Haitians, and they are mislabeled or they are attributed to white relations to these people of color. And I think it’s something where if there’s any inkling for those that are in in this kind of genealogy Facebook group that something’s there, and it’s like, oh, well, you know, this person was enslaved by this person.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:35:54]:
Go to that collection. Go to those files because you’re bound to find something. And I I think that, you know, my book, especially in the book form, is a call to arms to declassify the archives because there’s so many stories that are yet to be told.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:36:10]:
Oh, how did he appear to see sort of a balance or straddle the 2 worlds, the white and black world? Can you talk about that?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:36:22]:
Yeah. I I think it’s the you know, while it was not a discussion at that time, you know, w b boys’ theory and the Frantz Fanon’s, of course, theory of double consciousness comes to play where you have this black face, this white mask, where if he is dealing with a client, he is going to be, you know, changing his voice, changing his mannerisms to fit what is the expected appearance. You know, it it it reminds me of a little bit of kind of the 19 thirties Gone with the Wind kind of portrayal of those of African descent

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:36:58]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:36:59]:
How he’s kind of acting in these white spaces. But then he when he’s home, he is, you know, he is resuming what what his community is. You know, he’s he’s very articulate. You know, he may not be, quote, unquote, seen as articulate within the white community, but he’s very articulate. He would dress very snazzy for for the white community, but he would resume kind of a more Afrocentric dress or Haitian traditional dress at home. He would never play music for his white counterparts, but when he had people of color visiting, he was actually a very gifted violinist. So there is a lot of things that Pierre Toussaint did with his white community. It didn’t do his black community.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:37:42]:
It didn’t do his white community. And he tried to straddle those worlds because it was a means to an end. And one of the the big takeaways from this research is that, once again, a lot of people say that Pierre Toussaint is a New Yorker. He’s not. He is constantly raising money to get out of New York and try to find a space where him and his family can be and a place that they’re looking for a place that is very accepting of those of African descent, and they can find that community that otherwise they couldn’t find in New York because New York was rapidly changing, especially after the 18 thirties.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:38:17]:
Did you find anything in the records about what life was like for him and Saint Domingue?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:38:21]:
Not much. There is a lot of correspondence about what’s going on in Saint Domingue with the revolution after he goes. But when it comes to his childhood and his time in Saint Domingue, I’m really reliant on sources of other people from the, Saint Mark’s parish region. There are some records from his enslaver as well as other authors that had come before. So not so much about that, at that time.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:38:51]:
How you you mentioned earlier of some how he made his money. He made his money through hairdressing, but that wasn’t the bulk. You said he invested in real estate too. Right? Like, how rich, I think the number I saw was, like, at some point, he had about $900,000 or something like that, close to a $1,000,000. But by US standard at at the time, what what what was he, like, very wealthy or or moderately wealthy? What how did he make his money, and how does he fit within the the standard of of of of his wealth compared to others at the time? Not necessarily just within his community.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:39:27]:
Yeah. So his net worth was $900,000, and that is in today’s standard. So I did a conversion Oh, okay. In 18/33. So he’s basically almost a millionaire, which is way better off than a lot of people in New York, white or black, at the time. So the way that Pierre Soussaint made his money at first was that he was just doing hairdressing. But one of the things that is so interesting about the hairdressing business is that you get to hear a lot. It’s kinda like being a fly on a wall of these financial conversations.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:40:01]:
And so he is learning some of the methods to make money in investing, and what he does is he invests in a lot of real estate insurance. And so in by 18/33, New York is building, building, building, building. I mean, even during when he first arrives, the port of New York grows because, you know, they are wanting to receive goods and immigrants from throughout the Atlantic world, and they build it after the American Revolution. And so the the city in New York is very much in its embassy when Pierre Toussaint arrives, but it grows so much during this period in time. And, you know, the infrastructure in America grows during this time. From the 18 tens to the 18 thirties, you have railways that are emerging. You have roads that are being built. You have steamships are coming into play at the end of the 18 twenties, early 18 thirties, which is getting more and more people to travel.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:40:56]:
So New York becomes this major hub at that time, and Pierre Toussaint gets in on the ground floor in terms of real estate insurance. So and that’s why he’s able to donate money. That’s why his wife is able to drive different business ventures. It’s in but, however, you know, after the fire of 1835, a lot of these companies that were supposed to be providing insurance for the for the buildings went bankrupt because everybody was asking for their money. They compared this fire in 18/35 to Pompeii. So, I mean, it’s something that was a major disaster, and it really hurt Pierre Toussaint. And I would argue that if Pierre Toussaint kept that kind of money, he was prepared to leave the city of New York.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:41:36]:
What did he want to live other than New York?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:41:38]:
He was really into he wanted to go to Paris. He really heard about the the treatment of those of African descent in France. He thought it was better. He already knew several people in France that he knew, predominantly those that are white. And he was determined to go there despite being told several times, man, you do French hair. You’re you do the hair in French styles, but so does every barber in Paris. Like, you are unique in the United States, and you’re making a lot of money in the United States. You’re not gonna be as successful in Paris.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:42:15]:
But after his extreme loss of money, he starts to look at places close to New York. So he starts looking at Chicago, Montreal, New Orleans in particular. But he has to raise that money to get out again. So he doesn’t make that kind of money before he dies. There’s a lot of health issues that he has and his wife have in the 18 forties 18 fifties. So they stay.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:42:40]:
Who was George Paddington, and what role did he play in Pierre Toussaint’s life?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:42:45]:
Yeah. George Paddington’s a really fascinating individual. Paddington was a black Catholic priest. He was born and raised receiving seminary training in Ireland. And so he is, you know, basically the black Irishman. Of course, he’s gonna be a good Catholic. And one of the things that they say when he’s ordained is they go, hey. You’re black? We wanna get black Catholics in Haiti.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:43:11]:
How about you go to Haiti? And he is grossly unprepared. He does not speak French. He does not know Creole. And so he is going to Haiti, and he, basically, through this black Catholic network, ends up in New York for a period of time on his way to Haiti, and he stays with the Toussaint family. And Pierre Toussaint, like many Haitians at the time actually, the majority of Haitians I write about are lodgers, where they basically allow Haitians to stay with them as a way to make some income but also build community. And so he lodges with Pierre Toussaint, and Pierre Toussaint says, hey. I know people in Haiti. Here’s a list of 3 major figures that you should come talk to when you go and board a press.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:43:52]:
And so he because Pierre Toussaint speaks English and he knows the Haitian community, he’s a prime correspondent with Pierre Toussaint. And so Paddington is an interesting figure because he is kinda part of this Catholic church before the concordant of 18/61. They’re trying to get into Haiti. They’re trying to recognize Haiti and Haitian sovereignty and trying to see if the Catholic church can thrive and grow in Haiti. This is during the Boire regime where a lot of people were interested in this. So he arrives in Haiti in 18/36, and he stays there for a few years. However, he is pulled out of Haiti, you know, shortly after. I mean, he’s very frustrated where, once again, he doesn’t speak French, and he’s not receiving any support from the Catholic church at all.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:44:43]:
He’s actually receiving more support from those that are associated with the American Catholic Church and the Church of Rome. And so he gets pulled out, And one of the things that I find interesting is that he reappears later on in my work because Paddington becomes part of the think tank about how to bring the church back to Haiti again. So he does two tries to bring the Catholic church to Haiti, and it’s unsuccessful. But he’s he’s really interesting in terms of somebody who who’s able to successfully tap into peer 2 salons Haitian network, and he gives him news about them, which I think is fascinating as well because a lot of people, once again, really paint Pier Toussaint as somebody who is firmly person, patient, descent that’s a New Yorker. And this really highlights the fact that Pierre Toussaint keeping up with his family, keeping up with his friends in Haiti, and has an invested interest in Haiti during this time of trying to get American or French recognition.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:45:40]:
Talk about that a little bit, his kinship network in Haiti. You mentioned 3 three individuals. Mhmm. Yeah. You wanna summarize what, what that network was like?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:45:52]:
And Yeah. And yeah. And there’s there’s definitely more than just these individuals. But there’s 3 people that I have found to be really important to the writing. Diego Moya, Constance but Constantine Boyer, as well as, Monsieur Bignois. I I can’t remember the first name off the top of my head, but, Monsieur Bignois basically goes back and forth between Haiti several times in the United States. He tries to set up a fruit store in Manhattan. Then he raises enough money, goes back to Haiti.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:46:23]:
He starts kind of a mercantile business. And then in 18/36, he goes back to New York and reestablishes his fruit store there. So once again, showing that mobility. But each of these three individuals, thinks about the indemnity, thinks about how the Haitian government is doing, especially during the fall of Boire in 18/43. So they are somebody who who really lets Pierre Toussaint know what’s happening on the ground. And, Paddington is able to kind of tap in this network because he’s also going, like, you know, I need to get acclimated to this environment. They’re putting me outside of border fronts so that he’s on the countryside. So he’s trying to get to know the people in this region really quickly, and he’s trying to establish church, which a lot of these kind of in this institutions that are predominantly white institutions, you know, there needs to be, some air of trust between the community for to bring people in.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:47:24]:
And that’s something where he’s trying to build that trust really quickly, and they they help him to get a leg up. But I it’s just I don’t think with the lack of support from the Catholic church, he was not able to do this alone. And the network, while helping him a lot, did not, you know, it didn’t prove to be successful.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:47:41]:
Did you find evidence that, Pierre Toussaint spoke Creole or wrote it?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:47:48]:
No. The majority of the letters I have found were in French, but that is because a lot of the people he corresponded with were beneficiaries of the schools that emerged in 17/96 during the Haitian Revolution. A lot of the women in the Baltimore network, for instance, were part of some of the churches Catholic churches schools in major Haitian cities. And so when it comes to their correspondence, it’s very formal and formal French. I would not be surprised if he spoke Crea, but I don’t think he wrote it. And I’m assuming, especially through the correspondence with Paddington, where Paddington says, you know, he he has no opportunities to studying creole, and the creole that he’s and he’s dealing with outside of Port au Prince is different than the creole that he spoke with Pierre Toussaint. I I think that highlights that, you know, Pierre Toussaint is trying to teach him Creole, but it’s it’s something where it’s not part of that written dialogue at that point, at least for them, at least from the letters I found. There may be there may be some that are that highlight that, but not at this time.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:48:58]:
You did a migration comparison using the following sites, Montreal, Toussaint Saint Thomas, New York City, and Chicago. What what why was it necessary for you to do a migration comparison of those cities?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:49:13]:
So I did that migration comparison due to the sources. So one of the big things I have taught have been taught was, you know, to go into those archives and find sources that speak to you. This entire dissertation was guided on sources and having them speak to me. So when I went to New York to do research, I wasn’t like, I’m gonna find Pierre Toussaint. I was going, I’m gonna find members of the Haitian migration experience and try to tell their stories. And Pierre Toussaint, just the records I found within his collection spoke to me. And the same thing happened within his revolution, where I started to go through the correspondence, and these letters really spoke to me. This includes, you know, Louis Benoit.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:50:03]:
That’s who I was thinking of, Louis Benoit, Thomas a Debas, as well as a friend from Chicago who’s lost the history, and this highlights the Chicago friend. You know, the original author, the Sawyer individual, he took some of these letters and never returned them to the the Shiloh family. And she uses his letters as a joke, and she actually writes about this in her personal correspondence about the Chicago correspondence. But if you read it from the perspective of the black experience, it is something that it’s not a joke. And highlights some of the survival imperialism that Pierre Toussaint did. But, also, Pierre Toussaint is asking each of these individuals, would he be successful living there? And his friend in Chicago is like, nope. His friend in Montreal says, you know, Montreal is better. What’s interesting is he, Louis Benoit, marries a woman named Monique, who’s a white woman.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:50:57]:
He’s chased out of New York City because of this interracial marriage, and he finds that Montreal is, like, the best place for interracial couples as well as those that speak French. And I think one of the for those that are young scholars listening to this, if you don’t do it, I’ll do it, is I think there’s there is this Haitian Canada connection that really has been underexplored, and Benoit is one of those that really highlights this. And there’s several people in Montreal that are with that are mentioned in the Pierre Toussaint collection that I I was not able to fully uncover just due to time. But this this comparison of basically going, hey. We have Canada, the United States, and Danish Caribbean, and talking about how everyone is looking that is Haitian to try to find a place within the Americas to basically live and survive and thrive. And all of them are asking these questions. Is it better where you are versus where I’m at? And I have a really good quote by Deben, who says, like, you know, I’ve lived in the United States. I’ve lived in France.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:52:09]:
I’ve lived in the Danish Caribbean. And a lot of people say you know, I when I bring up the United States saying that’s that’s one of the best places to live are like, what the heck are you talking about? United States is one of the ones most publicized as being this space where black people are treated like cattle. And he’s like, well, within the black communities, if you can find a space within them and you can kinda insulate yourself from the white communities in the United States, it’s actually a very nice place to be. And so I found that to be a very surprising analysis. I I was actually thinking Canada would be better in some of these dynamics, but it’s something where I just had a whole new appreciation for the migration experience after reading these letters. And Pierre Toussaint really trying to figure out where he’s gonna end up based on based on his friendships. And these people did not hold back with their commentary about how they’ve been treated throughout the political world.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:53:09]:
Before we get it to Juliette Toussaint nay Gaston, can you talk about Baltimore? Yeah. I think you described it as sort of a nexus for for for for black and white migration, Haitian black and white migration. Why why is that? You said you had something to do with trade. Right? Can you talk about Baltimore?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:53:31]:
Yeah. No. I was really appreciative of the city of Baltimore, because I I got my my my PhD at Howard, and Baltimore is right up the road. And it was, you know, a wonderful place to do research, but also it has been this kind of black space within the American narrative, you know, especially during 19th century. When we talk about the African American experience, Baltimore is a jewel in that, but also when you’re talking about the Haitian experience or the Catholic experience, Baltimore is a center of that as well, where Baltimore was where the Catholic church was headquartered in the United States, The diocese of the United States, 13 colonies, and Baltimore was where everybody hung out because Baltimore was originally a Catholic state. So from the jump, you have Baltimore being kind of a beacon for those that are Catholic, especially French Catholics. And so you have a lot of French Catholics throughout the, you know, 16th, 17th 18th, Not 16th. 17th, 18th, 19th century, go to Baltimore and find community there.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:54:42]:
From that, you have those that are these second sons or these merchants that have Catholic family in Baltimore and in Saint Domingue, particularly Lacoste, trading with each other. And especially when you have a major wheat crisis in metropolitan France and they’re not able to bring wheat to the Caribbean, Baltimore becomes this major place to get flour that is essential to the majority of the French dishes that they’re cooking there, the sacraments as well. And so Baltimore and and Saint Domingue have had a long history. And so during the Haitian Revolution, when you’re talking about a lot of these families, these immigrant families, and deciding where to go, Baltimore becomes the major place to go. And one of my favorite letters that I found that demonstrates this and one of my favorite parts of the dissertation, and I make sure to use it in almost every conference paper too when I talk about immigrants, is this guy named Colonel Aungui Adejussa, who’s a planter for Saint Domingue, but he also fought in the American Revolution. He was one of the aide de corps of George Washington. He oversee a lot of the building of fortifications during the American Revolution. And, basically, he retired to Saint Domingue after his military career to start the plantation.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:56:07]:
However, after the Haitian Revolution begins, he’s looking at the United States with his wife. And she and unfortunately, he’s away at the time, so he writes a letter. And it really gives the mindset of the immigrants because there’s this whole thing, and I think it’s a pretty racist narrative of, like, oh, when they burn, la Cap, all the white people don’t know where to go, and they’re going immediately out. There’s a lot of people who sit and plan. The gods, the enslavers appear to stop through this as well as to And he writes to his wife, we should have to give up on Pennsylvania because she really wanted to go to Philadelphia like most people. And he says, I feel the attention you will receive there will bring you regrets later. New Jersey is too cold. We ought to find a place where, while having the facility to obtain as many Negroes as we would like, we should also have the advantage of a less rigorous climate than New Jersey or Pennsylvania.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:57:00]:
Maryland seems to me to have both advantages. It has the advantages of customs and manners of European society more than any other place I’ve inquired about. And so that’s how they end up in Baltimore. But that’s also the thing where a lot of immigrants end up in Baltimore for that reason. The European customs, the Catholic background, Freemasonry is huge, so there’s a lot of white Freemasons that end up in Baltimore through that connection. And a lot of times, also, you have immigrant families that end up in Norfolk, Virginia or in other parts of the United States, and a lot of city officials don’t have a chance to give them sanctuary as you see with a lot of these kind of immigrating moments or migration moments where the locals are overwhelmed. And they say, well, we don’t have the infrastructure to take care of you, but if you go to Baltimore, I hear that’s the place to be. So there’s a big push for people to go to Baltimore.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:57:54]:
And on the on the black perspective of this, also, you know, there’s a lot of black families that end up in Charleston, South Carolina. About 3 different families I talk about end up starting in Charleston, South Carolina because they’re like, this is the place we need to be. And then due to the racism they narrative, they’re like, well, we’re gonna continue on up the East Coast of the United States. And Baltimore is one of the primary places that people end up. And because of this broad African American population, particularly large sector of free people of color, these Haitians are able to find community. So Baltimore is just such a huge place within the Haitian narrative, and I really feel like it’s been under discussed in lieu of New York or Louisiana.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:58:36]:
Yeah. Juliette. Who was she? She was she’s quite extraordinary, actually, you know, in her in her own right. You read extensively about, her her, Kenship Network in Baltimore. Can you go through a little bit about Juliette, what we should know about her and how important she is to this narrative?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:58:54]:
Yeah. So she is, you know, an enslaved individual to the Gaston family. And so she and and and the Noel family as well. So she is connected to both of them. One of the things that’s been really great is there’s been some really good research on the Noelle family. So I I am standing on the shoulders of giants here. And so there’s been some really great research about the Newell family’s extensive immigrating network in the United States, and it’s a white family. But they have black members in the family as well through intermarriage as well as, I suppose, rape as well and and offshoots of that.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:59:29]:
It’s something really interesting to connect Haitian and a lot of her her her continued kinship network within this. And so Julia is one of those people that her enslavers take her to Baltimore, and they basically continue on. They continue taking her to Delaware, Pennsylvania before she ends up in New York. And that’s how she meets Pierre Toussaint. Is that they’re basically

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:59:53]:
What time period are we talking here? What year?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [00:59:56]:
Between 18 1793 to 18 0 8. She appears in the historical record for the first time when Pierre Toussaint purchases her haitian. She she gets manumitted from her family. And so since Pierre Toussaint had been saving money for his manumission by being freed upon the deathbed of his enslaver, he has that extra money and he buys because, you know, he’s considered to be more valuable. This is my revolution, that he purchases his sister’s and his soon to be wife’s emancipation as a result. And so that’s the first time that she appears in the historical record, is that she she’s in New York. She’s been she’s been emancipated by her husband. And then within 6 months, they’re married.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:00:39]:
I know from looking at haitian slavers’ family’s records that they have been moving about for quite a bit, and her mother is in tow as well. So once she’s emancipated, her mother gets to stay with them in in their house in New York City. She is somebody who maintains this really long connection with her extended family in Baltimore. So while they first landed in Baltimore and moved, there are several people within that extended family, including Fanny Montpensier, as well as members of the Noel family, that stay there. And it’s really interesting because these are Haitians that end up going into careers such as Pierre Toussaint. So a lot of them start off doing a hairdressing business and some deviate to to be merchants or grocers or but they end up making a lot of money and they become these pivotal figures in the Haitian Catholic community of Baltimore. And that’s where we really find their their appearances in the historical record. And they’re very slight.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:01:38]:
So it’s like, you know, somebody baptized. The Newell family’s eldest daughter becomes a sister of the Ablates Sisters of Providence, which is a all female order of the Catholic church that is started by Haitian women. It’s the first permanent community of black Catholic sisters in United States. So that’s one of the reasons why they keep those records on her. But it’s in the Pier Toussaint revolution that information about their lives are really uncovered, and I’m really excited to be sharing this research on them. The other people are loosely associated with these family people. So the Ariel family, Adamae Oyo is one of the founders of the Ablaid Sisters of Providence because she has a lot of money from her husband who passed away, who had a a major bakery in Baltimore next to a very famous tavern. And they sold their property in Baltimore, which got them quite a bit of money.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:02:31]:
And the DuSant family, which is part of that Catholic network as well. And so these are the 4 families that I really kind of examined. It’s the Montetier, Aureole, Noel, and DuSant. And they are some really fascinating individuals that communicate what’s going on in Baltimore, in the black community, the Catholic community, but also come visit here at Toussaint in many unique ways that highlight the different levels of economic mobility as well as physical mobility of blacks from Baltimore. And I I think it really paints an interesting part of the black experience. The one thing I’ll also say about the chapter is that it’s all women. This is one of the first chapters written, to my knowledge, that is all women talking to each other, and it’s a fascinating narrative.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:03:23]:
Dig a little deeper on the Oblate Sisters of Providence. You said some Haitian women were founders of that? Yeah. More about about and their affiliation with Juliet.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:03:35]:
It’s really from Fanny Malpensier. So Fanny Malpensier is the cousin of Juliet. She comes into Baltimore from Haiti during the age of revolution, and she marries, and she’s widowed quite young. And so she is trying to make money, and she ends up befriending the widow, Ariu, who just lost her husband. Had a lot of money, but she had 3 children, and she needed somebody to help her take care of the children. And so she comes and becomes part of this home network. And so Ariel is friends with Mary Elizabeth Lang from Saint Domingue, Marie Francis, Bela from Saint Domingue. And so they start this order through the ablates system.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:04:20]:
It’s called the ablates of Providence. They started by educating black kids from Haiti in their home. They caught the eye of a recent emigre, James Nicolas Joubert, who is a former tax collector from Saint Domingue who comes to Baltimore with his uncle and becomes a priest. And so he is working with families from Son Doong Meng and is in touch with this community, and he observes this school. And he says, well, hey, if we get more and more people to educate black children from zanbo Meng, you know, by these women, we could create, like, this kind of Catholic order that does that. And so, you know, they need a lot of money, though. And so one of the things that really hasn’t been talked about is that they do a huge fundraising thing, and they start mailing out requests for donations. And so the person that helps them organize this is madame Oriel.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:05:22]:
Because she has a lot of money, and she gives it to the Catholic church freely, they come to her and they say, can you put down this down payment and to get this thing started? Because, you know, Lang and Mulan and several, Bela, who who are these founding sisters don’t have that kind of money. They’ve been running the stuff out of their own home, and the Catholic church doesn’t have enough money to support this at this time until they recognize the order. And so she starts sending out letters with them, including to the Toussaint family, to raise money to start this order, and they get approval to do so. And so the Toussaint family figures greatly into this too. They continue receiving this newsletter once they they’re kind of initial investors as you be in a lot of these fundraising things. They’re like, oh, this is how it’s doing. Give us some more money. Julier goes to the New York market and buys several goods and ships in the Baltimore to help the Oblates out.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:06:13]:
And so this order really does grow. The other thing that should be pointed out is that Fanny Monpensier desperately wanted to become a member of this order. And I was talking to an expert about this, and she didn’t know about this letter. But there’s this letter from Marie Paul Fannie Loupensia to Haitian, and she goes, it costs $500, the dowry, at that time to become an Oblate Sisters of Providence. So there’s this kind of financial barrier to entry for a certain black women, and some black women are able to find that money. I know a mother and daughter, the daughter pays $500, and when she’s in the order, the mom pays $300 to get herself in. They do raise a lot of money, and they really connect within this black community. And so this is where a lot of the members of the Baltimore community that are connected with Toussaint family go to worship, and they have this really interesting connection with them over the years.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:07:05]:
And in my dissertation, I don’t talk about it enough, but I explore this a lot more in the book, so I’m very excited to share that with everyone. The Oblisces of Providence become this center of black education in Baltimore as well as black faith within the Catholic church, and they’re our order that continues to the present.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:07:24]:
So now let’s talk about madras. Am I pronouncing that like m a d r a s? It’s madras?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:07:32]:
Madras. Yeah.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:07:33]:
Madras. Okay. Headscarves, basically. Yeah. What is the importance of Madras as a fashion statement? It I didn’t detect any sort of religious statement for the wearers. Right? This was purely sort of like, how important was it at that time period in terms of, you know, haitian, the the headscarves? And that you said Creole women and enslaved women and children were wearing it was quite quite a thing.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:07:59]:
Yeah. So when it comes to, you know, once again, these kind of cultural significance and discussions of black hair, I I think is something that was one of the more surprising elements of the haitian. But I I was writing this, and, actually, I was teaching a course at Howard at the time. And I do this kind of culture in the diaspora paper that my students do. And almost every semester, I’d have somebody write a paper on on black hair and the snippets of it. So it was something that that that really was interesting. It hit home when I was reading this as well. So when we talk about, you know, heads there there are several different types of headscarves that are worn within the diaspora tradition.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:08:37]:
And so it’s one of those things that the madras is is is specific within itself. So it’s a specific type of fabric that’s, you know, made up of warp of silk or a woolful cotton produced in Tamil Nadu province of India. And it was consumed particularly by those of the French Caribbean. When it came to the United States, Fannie was like, okay. Well, we can’t get this, like, you know, silk and stuff like that. But if we can get some cotton madras, it’d be great. But the specific ones who were in the French Caribbean were checked linen, often white, red, pink, cotton cloth through a cotton silk blend. And so when you’re talking about social mobility, economic mobility, fashion is part of that.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:09:22]:
So if you were somebody from Haiti or Haitian emigre and you wore a white madras on your head, it was kind of a it was a status symbol as well as one that was utilitarian because white is very hard to clean. So you gotta keep it gotta keep it really nice. And so for somebody who can continue to wash it and continue to take care of it and make sure it’s not looking bad, it was a huge emblem of mobility. And that’s why you see several of the women I write about who have portraits made of them, they are wearing madras on their head. It’s something that those that are from the Haitian community, they they’ve had this kind of headdress be used at special events, you know, throughout prior to the Haitian Revolution. And, you know, they would incorporate different things like, you know, beads of gold or, you know, some necklace of gold to be part of this kind of ensemble. When Fanny comes to Baltimore, he’s noticing there are a lot of Haitians who complain because they’re like, we can’t have access to this source. And she is somebody who works she lives 2 blocks from the Lexington market, which is still functioning today, which is kind of the farmers market, central place for a lot of black market women, including yourself.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:10:39]:
And so she writes to Julia, and she goes, are you having this stuff in New York? Because we can’t find it in Baltimore. And Julia is like, yeah. Like, New York is kind of a very massive market. She Julia lives very close to the docks, and she’s able to see stuff that comes off the ships, and she can get it for a very fair price. And so Fanny has a light bulb off, and she’s like, what if I I, sell this stuff for us? You know, I’m living under the employ of somebody I’d you know, that’s a friend of mine, but I wanna kinda get out from under. We wanna give some money to the ablates of Providence. You know? And you and Toussaint are doing pretty well financially, but, you know, we could always get you guys a kickback as well. So let’s let’s figure out some kind of, you know, trade relationship we could do.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:11:25]:
And so Fanny really takes this initiative, and Juliet helps her with it. It’s not successful. It’s it’s one of those kind of experimental things that they do, But it there is such an intense correspondence about it. I felt like I had to share in terms of this kind of culture. And so the reverse of that is the, the okra, where where the Madras was big in New York City and easily accessible. Okra was something that was accessible in the Baltimore market.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:11:56]:
That’s a good lead. Gumbo and okra. We talked earlier about cultural retention. Talk about the Okra Okra trafficking with those 2 ladies.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:12:10]:
So yeah. So that’s something that I found to be just really, really interesting. Okra is one of those kind of revolution, the African diaspora that was that Toussaint be easily be traced. Right? So it’s okra, you know, gumbo is even the term West African term for okra. But it’s it’s something where you could really trace this style this this cultural haitian of the diaspora. While, you know, some of the people that I talk about practice food, not all of them. It wasn’t very well documented, and so I really felt like okra was one of those things I could really kinda make this a diaspora paper. Okra has so many uses, which I thought was interesting, and I had to learn about from those.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:12:54]:
So, you know, okra was used as a coffee substitute. To induce abortions on the plantation, not just to, you know, make soups and things as well, but it had this kind of heavy medicinal use.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:13:12]:
One of

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:13:12]:
the things about okra was it was grown in Baltimore, in the region of Maryland. It was grown in Virginia as well, in North Carolina, I believe, But it wasn’t grown to as much of an extent until after the Haitian Revolution. And so after the Haitian Revolution, with the migration of those African descent to Maryland, you have a huge growth in okra, and okra comes to the market. One of the things that Julia would do as a way to kind of continue these relationships is that she would make this really good gumbo. So her mother was a nurse and cook, and she was a nurse and cook when they were enslaved. But one of the things that they would do is use gumbo as a way of just showing people that they care about them and think about them. And this is something that they gave to both white and black correspondents. And the okra and gumbo appear a lot in the Pierre Toussaint correspondence.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:14:06]:
Julia would make some roux with the okra, and she would ship it out on several ships with spices next to it with a letter. And they would be sent, you know, to France. They’d be sent to the UK. They’d be sent to the Caribbean. They’d be sent to Louisiana. And so it was something that she need a lot of this okra because she kept sending this stuff out. And so she began in the early 18 thirties to really check-in with Fanny and see if there was a way that they could be shipped. And one of the cool things about this kind of correspondence and these questions was that, you know, Fannie would also tell her how she is sending this okra and also gave insight into how these letters were being received because they’re not going through the typical postal service because they couldn’t afford it.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:15:02]:
And so if it was pretty much, you know, this person’s going to New York that I know from church. This friend of yours is going to New York. They’re gonna be carrying this much okra with them. And so it was really cool to to see not just how the shipment of okra furthers GEA’s relationships with those in the transnational community, but also this kind of how do things move during the 19th century within this black network. But Fannie would write to Julia about, you know, if Oprah was in the market, you know, if it was a good season or not. And even after Juliet passes away, if she passes away for Pierre Toussaint, Juliet oh, sorry, Benny Monpethier sends Pierre Toussaint okra. This is how your wife made it. This is what you need to do in terms of storing it, and, you know, make sure that you do it in this way.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:15:54]:
So it was a way of also just saying, you know, your Baltimore community is thinking of you. And it was just something really fascinating to see throughout their kind of 30 to 40 odd years of correspondence.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:16:07]:
You said something earlier I’d like for you to if you could go back, maybe you can add a little bit more to it. This this you you you touched on okra being used as an abort efficient. Mhmm. Yeah. As as a as a form by by the enslaved women or just in general? So can you talk more about that? That’s a fascinating tidbit there.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:16:31]:
Yeah. So I I think it’s something where, you know, it’s interesting how these West African items and traditions are used as a means of rebellion in slavery. And one of the things that a lot of people, you know, who read this work will recognize is that the majority of these people that I write about were enslaved at one time or another, even, you know, the Ezeke Lyautrec and Place de Clerc, who, you know, were raised by by Toussaint Lyautrec were on the plantation, and that experience influenced their entire lives. So okra and these medicinal items also are something that influences these women throughout their lives in terms of this kind of culinary experience. But, you know, on the plantation, these these items that were both used for culinary purpose were used for medicinal purposes to ensure healthier lives in terms of these really unsuitable environments, but also as a means of protest or health. And so okra was used to induce abortions on the plantation, and what would happen is that enslaved women would lubricate their uterine passage with with the slimy pods of the okra. And, supposedly, that would lead to having an abortion. So I I cannot take credit for that.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:18:00]:
Joseph e Holloway writes about this. He claims that the practice is still used in West Africa today in his work writing West African or sorry, writing African history. But it’s something that I I think is is something that’s not really discussed. And I think as we as the scholarship and the scholarship is moving quickly on this, you know, within the last few years talking about black health. And we’ll be talking about this a little bit when you ask me about the, the 18 32 cholera outbreak. But when we talk about black health, you know, these medicinal methodologies, not just to ensure health, but it’s one of those things where the pregnancy is gonna threaten somebody’s life. They wanna do this, but also as a means of rebellion

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:18:47]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:18:48]:
You know, if a rape occurs.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:18:49]:
Okay. Cholera epidemic. Go ahead. Let’s talk about that.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:18:54]:
Yeah. So another thing of you know, this little background about me. I I’m a son of a psychologist and psychiatrist. My mother has an MD. My father had a PhD. They’re first generation education family, but, you know, medicine has been a conversation throughout my life. And one of the reasons why I went to the went into the historical profession was to escape medicine. So it was very interesting to to have this discussion at this point in my career.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:19:24]:
And, also, I was writing this during the the pandemic. So reading about the color epidemic, which was really a pandemic, is somewhat scary. I also observed that some of the the regulations that that were done by the United States during that time were better than some of the restrictions they did during COVID 19, which I found to be somewhat interesting. But the cholera epidemic of 18 32 in the United States begins in Europe in 18/31 and spreads to the United States. And it it’s really eerie because the newspapers trace it from Europe through Canada and then finally enters New York in June of 18 32. And very much like COVID, they didn’t really know what to do. They kinda assumed it was like yellow fever where it was this kind of seasonal thing. And like yellow fever, it’s something where, once again, medicine in Haiti and Haitians are are are, you know, inescapable because yellow fever Haitians were thought to be immune to that.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:20:26]:
Very much like in cholera outbreaks, a lot of Haitians were thought to be immune. It’s very much like, you know, in 19 eighties when you talk about AIDS and the relationship with Haitians. The same thing were attributed to both the cholera outbreak. This is you know, you know, the cholera outbreak was very similar in that respect. A lot of people that were wealthy, that were white, were able to leave these city counter, and believing it’s like fever, they would just come back when it was done, quote, unquote. But there were several renewals of cholera that occurred in several of these cities. What happens with these Haitians in New York and Baltimore is that a lot of them are on the front lines, and a lot of them are part of the communities that are disproportionately affected. And this is something, you know, you see in any outbreak.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:21:14]:
You see a disproportionate population being hit, particularly those of African descent. And this is something that you see in the Pierre Toussaint collection. Fannie Loupensier said specifically, is the black French community being hit just as hard as it’s being hit in Baltimore? So Pierre Toussaint and Julien are on the front lines. They’re bringing food to white neighbors who can’t get out. They’re supporting people that are sick in the hospitals. They are, you know, basically doing all that they can to assist their community. And and it’s being noted throughout their their network. Even one of their friends in Paris writes back and says, you know, you are safe for doing this, which is one of the things that when Pierre Toussaint is being weighed Toussaint Cloud, they’re they’re actually incorporating his participation in in the cholera outbreak in 18 32.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:22:06]:
So, basically, what happens is it hits New York and then it goes down south. Basically, by July 20th, things are back to normal in New York City for for the most part. Special medical counter in New York City proclaims the city is safe, but it’s not recorded in Baltimore till August 4th. So while New York is kind of out of the out of this kind of, you know, issue, Baltimore is just getting started. And so the first case recorded in Baltimore is just 8 blocks away from Fannie Loupizia. It’s at the intersection of Liberty and Baltimore Street, which is right by the the Baltimore Harbor present day. And there actually are health officials that at that time say, Well, if it only affected the black community, should we even report it to the public? Which is something that, you know, was a complete misuse of power at that time, and fortunately, it got out. But basically, from August 4th to the 1st week of September, 254 Baltimore citizens died.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:23:09]:
A 104 of them were black. And of those that were black that died, only 10 were enslaved. The rest, 94, were part of the free Baltimore population, and many of them were from the black French community. So this is what Fannie Montanciero, Julia Ursine not Julia. Madame Mario, as well as their friends are seeing a lot of their neighbors passing. The other thing that is really unique about this situation is the Oblate History of Providence. And so once again, this kind of myth of black bodies, within the health system comes into play here because a lot of the nuns were asked to treat people. But the heaviest hit areas, they asked the Oblates to take care of.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:23:55]:
And they specifically relied on a few that had nursing background. There’s only one Oblate’s sister of the providence who passes away from cholera, and she actually passes away taking care of the bishop of Baltimore. And so it it’s really interesting to see where she sacrificed her life basically for this bishop to survive. But they’re they’re the ones taking care of people, the alms houses and things like that. And it’s something where it’s a very unique chapter of the Baltimore experience that really hasn’t been discussed much. But the 18 32 cholera outbreak really does hit the black community hard, and it was a really interesting chapter to write again during COVID, where you’re seeing the same thing where people of African descent as well as current Haitian migrants are the ones that are on the front lines during COVID and are disproportionately being affected when it comes to disease. So it’s something that was really an interesting chapter to write, but also frustrating to write because a lot of this stuff has not changed. But I I think it’s something that Fene Ma Pencier was very cognizant of this in a time that many of her counterparts were not.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:25:12]:
Could you could you write a whole biography on Fanny Montesier?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:25:17]:
Actually, when I when I originally wrote the the, dissertation, the chapter was entitled Fanny Montesier. I don’t know. I I really feel like Fannie Moltencio’s writings to the Toussaint family are not autobiographical. Like, she really cared about her community. She cared about sharing her knowledge with those that she loved and wanted to hear about how they were doing. So I I don’t know. I think I could at least write an article about her, but I don’t know about writing a book. And one of the things that’s sad is that once Peter Toussaint passes away in 53 in 18/53, she lives till 18/80.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:26:04]:
There’s a whole 27 years that I’m able to find her in terms of she’s a volunteer nurse, which makes sense in the light of the the cholera outbreak and things like that. She’s still servicing her community. But when it comes to the daily life of her, it’d be really interesting to see if there’s somebody else who becomes her primary correspondent, but I have yet to find that. And I I’m in contact with with the Oblate History of Providence Archives in Maryland. I’m planning to go and and talk to them and see if there’s if there’s some other avenues of haitian. But it’s something that that’s that’s a narrative that should be told. I hope somebody finds that narrative, if not me. The other thing I would say about her and as well as many of the ablates and the Baltimore community, they were buried in a cemetery that’s not there anymore, and their bodies may have not been moved.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:27:01]:
So that’s something where we’re when we’re talking about inequality in the black experience in the United States, it’s really distressing because, basically, what they did is as Baltimore continued to grow, the cemetery was sold, and many of the white bodies were moved. But it is uncertain if her body was moved as well as others. And if they are, they’re probably in an unmarked grave, which is sad because that you know, it’d be really interesting to kind of see, you know, see see the spaces that are being left for them to preserve them and to glorify them. For Pierre Toussaint now has a wonderful you know, he has original gravesite and then he has a site in Saint Patrick’s Cathedral. You know, you have these other plate other individuals that have gravesites that are being glorified. But this Baltimore network really has been neglected It’s something I’m hoping to work with the city of Baltimore on, as I worked with my current institution, Suwanee University of South, in terms of unmarked graves on our campus. I think there’s needs to be memorials to these individuals who really, really provided for their community and is part of a narrative that still really needs to be told. And there’s been there’s some great stuff being done.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:28:13]:
I I would say, you know, there’s a there’s a wonderful digital map that you can go examine the city of Baltimore with black residences there. A lot of these people that I talk about are not recorded within that. I hope to work with the city of Baltimore on that. But they they are making some really good strides with this in terms of public history, but there is still much work to be done.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:28:34]:
You talked about Baltimore’s restrictive mobility laws as a reaction to the Haitian Revolution. What what year, are we talking about here? And, can you kinda, you know, flesh that out for us a little bit?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:28:50]:
Yeah. So and by the way, Baltimore was not alone. So Yeah. When in in light of the Haitian revolution, in light of the migration, you know, and it’s not even just in a part of the the North American experience. Cuba does a lot of the stuff as well that you see with the migration of several of those from Cuba to to New Orleans and, you know, the 18/12 Ponte Revolt, which is which there are several wonderful works that have been written about, highlight that, you know, with these white emigres, these black emigres come through, and and the white population is very suspicious of the amount of black population that they moved from the center of revolution. And a lot of these kind of a lot of instances that occur, you know, are blamed on those of African descent, whether they do anything or not. You know, you see in terms of Charleston, we think it’s American message revolt. I mean, it’s you know, they say that is that is based on the Haitian Revolution.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:29:48]:
Ponzi revolution Cuba based on those, Haitian emigres there. So there’s there is a there is a huge in North America suspicion of of black individuals that are leaving a space of rebellion. You see that even today where, you know, you have people from import in the Dominican Republic that are Haitian being kicked out in droves because they don’t wanna have uprisings that are occurring in Port au Prince or in Haiti affecting the Dominican Republic. So it it it’s something that when you talk about Maryland, they also were very suspicious of black individuals coming into the state. And the Maryland Assembly in 17/92 passes an act relating to free Negroes and slaves in 17/92 that would limit the amount of slave holding refugees, basically 3 persons of of a single male or 5 slaves to a family. In 17 96, as the Haitian Revolution continues and by 1792, that’s even before the majority of individuals from a la Cap, because the burning la Cap 17/93 results in a lot of people going to Maryland. So in 1792, they they prepared for this. So So in 17/96, there’s an act that would further restrict the importation of slaves and dictate policy on maintaining enslaved population within the borders of Maryland.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:30:57]:
So the Haitian Revolution really, you know, changes a lot of policy, especially when you’re talking about black mobility. And this doesn’t just include those that are enslaved, but individuals that are free, people of color, within these borders. A lot of these laws kind of stay stagnant after the Asian Revolution. But one of the things that really jars the American imagination in terms of laws and racial mobility is Nat Turner’s Rebellion, so in 18/31. Once again, you know, there’s been this kind of set standard of living for people of color. They figured out these avenues to slip between. But with Nat Turner’s revolution in 18/31, this changes the game. And so one of the great things about the Pierre Tussaud letters is that they’re corresponding right at this time.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:31:48]:
And, actually, Fanny Maupassaire is literally New York as that Turner’s revolution occurs. And when she comes back, she is greeted with a whole new set of regulations that are added to the same act about the Haitian Revolution, an act of free Negroes and slaves. And she immediately writes to Julia to be like, hey, you said you were gonna come visit. As a person of color, you need to know what’s going on. You know? And a lot of this talks about where blacks can live. And and a similar thing happens with Napoleon. I mean, you know, Napoleon during the Haitian revolution during the Haitian revolution or in the wake of it, releases the Napoleonic code as well as several different laws about black spaces. And there were so many blacks that were forbidden to live in pork cities because they wanted to prevent rebellion.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:32:44]:
They wanted to prevent black mobility or transnational communication. And so it’s something where, you know, you see restrictions on black mobility, both physical mobility but political mobility as well. And you see this in the United States as well, where, you know, the 2 people running for president recognize the power of the black voting block, and, you know, you see restrictions of black voting. So, I mean, it’s it’s no different in terms of Nat Turner’s revolution in the wake of that where you see you see, basically, United States going and the state of Maryland going. We can get check on black mobility because we don’t wanna have this rebellion occur again. It happened in Northern Virginia right near DC. So and and not that far away from Baltimore. So, basically, what they do is they say, hey.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:33:34]:
In terms of people coming from other states, we have a certain amount of time you can stay here. You cannot settle in major cities. In terms of Juillet, they basically say, if you stay longer than 10 days, you’re gonna have to pay a fine. And so when Julia finally comes to Baltimore, she writes a letter to Pierre Toussaint and says, hey. Just to remind you, there’s this law, and I need to be gone within 10 days, but I also haven’t seen my family in Baltimore for close to 20 years, and I really wanna spend some more time with them. And so Pierre Toussaint says, honey, we got money. We’ll pay the fine. The but the the thing is also she writes back to him and says, well, that’s all fine and good, but our friends can’t afford to pay the fine, and our friends could be jailed.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:34:27]:
And so she ends up leaving at the end of 10 days, which is really sad. But it goes to show how black mobility changes in the 18 thirties. But also Fanny doesn’t even come to Joliet’s funeral in the 1840s because she is afraid that there are even more restrictions of black mobility that are occurring during this period of time as we start marching towards the American Civil War. It really does affect these individuals of color in ways scholars hadn’t realized before because you’re having these personal letters and narratives being shared. And I really think it’s another gift of this manuscript that people are getting to hear how these laws directly affect these people. And I think it’s a great example that can be used in the classroom, especially working with undergraduates or graduate students who are who are wanting to understand the laws and social justice.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:35:26]:
After reading your dissertation and especially in this particular section, we’re covering this round, the family and their kinship network. How should diaspora Haitians today view the Toussaint as an example?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:35:44]:
Yeah. That’s a lot to unpack.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:35:46]:
Yeah. I think you’re done. Yeah.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:35:49]:
No. No. It’s a really good question, though. So I when I wrote the term first families, I I think when I wanted people to open the book or be gravitated towards the book and Haitian, I’ve I’ve I’ve not changed the title TBD on the, on on on I had to get them to contract my publisher, but it’s it should be hopefully, by the time this drops, it should be under contract. But, you know, when I when I really wrote wrote the term for his families, I wanted people to think, oh, I’m gonna be talking about these greats. You know, like, are the first families in the United States where you talk about Washington Jackson. But, you know, when they opened the book, I wanted them to be surprised. I wanted them to see that I’m not talking about these individuals.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:36:33]:
I I I really want to emphasize that the Haitian migration experience is one that’s extremely nuanced and that when when we’re talking about these first families, we’re really talking about these first generation of patients, and it’s not just Haitians that are in Haiti. I think that that is scholarship. You know, Jean Casimir is doing some really good work on that right now, and there should be more scholarship. You know, I hope eventually to go to Haiti and contribute. But during the time that I was writing, I was unable to go to Haiti. And so, what I really focus on is 1st Haitian, what can these 1st haitian of people that are part of this migration imperialism? And by discussing them, questioning the notions of Haitian citizenship, which is something that, we discussed at the beginning of the podcast. So I think I think that when we talk about Pierre Toussaint and Julia Toussaint and and this network, you know, they are they complicate this narrative. I would direct the fact that they’re part of the African American experience.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:37:40]:
I think they are experiencing certain aspects of it, but I think that they are they are having a more complicated narrative about that. And by situating them within just solely the African American experience, we’re limiting that that discussion about who they are, what they’re doing, and and how they they live their lives. Because if they’re just the African American spirit, they wouldn’t have this international element as much. Mhmm. And I I think if you ask a scholar who appeared Toussaint in the past, they would be talking about, oh, well, Pierre Toussaint is this example of black mobility, how to be how to navigate these networks and things like that. I think it’s something different. I think that Pierre Toussaint serves an example to those that are part of the, as you said, the Haitian diaspora. And the term diaspora, I think, is a little more complicated, but I think it’s something where Pierre Toussaint serves as an example of somebody who doesn’t know, somebody who’s constantly on a journey, someone who wants to understand the world around him and connect with those that have had a similar lived experience.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:38:53]:
And I think that is something that is part of that diaspora Haitian diaspora experience today, is that there is a lot of unknowns. There is a constant looking. When you talk about the Irish migration experience or the Italian migration experience or any kind of European migration experience, there’s this mentality of like you show up, you plant your roots at one spot, and you go. The Haitian diaspora experience or migration experience is not that. There’s constant movement. There’s constant evaluating whether to stay or go. There’s a constant, especially in 19th century, looking over one shoulder and saying, okay. What’s the racial temperature here? You know, do I need to be gone? The Vesey’s revolt in Charleston, there is more movement from there than almost any place for Haitians at that specific moment in history because they’re going, okay.

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:39:50]:
We’re either gonna go to New Orleans. We’re gonna go to New York. We’re gonna go to Norfolk because, basically, anybody who has anything to do with Haiti, because Haitian Revolution mentioned during vestige revolt and the trial that that came afterwards, we’re not safe here anymore. So I I think it’s something that too that too small, and family and and their friends and their kinship network really are showing that this experience is one that is not different from the one we’re having today. There may be new problems. There may be new situations. But there there there hasn’t been as much progress in terms of black migration as we have fought.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:40:29]:
I I and this is my term, folks, not, not the good professors. We’re gonna talk about Haiti’s first Nepo babies, the Louvertiers and the Christophe children, right, and their kinship network. Right? Can you give us some teasers on on those 2, first Haitian families?

Dr. Andrew Maginn [01:40:47]:
Yeah. And I I I wanna say also that, you know, the the families that they interact with that are Haitian in their respective regions are there are some big names there too. But we’re not just talking about the Leo Butchers, the Kristoff’s, you know, we’re we’re talking about several people.