Dr. Matthew Smith
Interview Playlist
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:00:36]:
Professor Matthew Smith. Yeah.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:00:41]:
Good. Good. Good. Good. Woman.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:00:45]:
Yeah. The title of your book is Red and Black in Haiti, Radicalism, Conflict, and political change, 1934 through 57.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:00:57]:
Yeah.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:00:57]:
What, were some of the gaps in the scholarship at the time that compelled you to write this book?
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:01:04]:
Sure. Sure. Well, first of all, I want to just say, Patrick, it’s it’s a great pleasure to be able to talk to you. You know, I’ve admired the work that you’ve been doing on the podcast with. I’ve listened to a few of them, and they’ve been really, really exciting. And it’s it’s it’s a great service to all people who are interested in Haitian history, which, you know, includes, of course, to but also everybody who is interested beyond Haitian and the Caribbean, with all the sorts of excellent work that people have been doing on Haiti. And I I’m, it’s a pleasure to be able to speak with you, but also an honor to be among a group of scholars whose work I respect a lot, you know, to be in the, in the Negro hot seat as it were.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:01:45]:
Okay. So Okay. So So this is
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:01:48]:
very exciting. Yes. My my book, Red and Black in Haiti, really developed out of work that I had done as a PhD when I was a student many years ago, at University of Florida. And that was when, sort of curiosity that I had for a very long time around the the history of Haiti and how integral that history the who we are as Caribbean people. And I thought to pursue that interest into looking at an aspect of Haitian history that I had sort of read about generally, but for which there had not been enough detailed information. So as I deepened my knowledge as much as I could on Haitian history and and got all the great books, you know, and sometimes not so great books, but a lot of the books that sort of cover this broad and, dramatic and, you know, moving history of Haiti. I found that the years after the occupation of the US, straight up to this sort of eve of the Duvalier dictatorship had not really given been given the sort of due attention that I felt it deserved. And, you know, as as often happens, I think, with many people who have intellectual curiosities, When you discover something that’s not there, you know, you feel moved to try and actually fill in that gap and and to look at it closely.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:03:14]:
And for me, it was 2 things. It was, 1, trying to understand where Haiti was at that time. What did it mean to come out of the US occupation, which, while formally an occupation in many respects, also reflected something very much like imperialism. And, that’s something we all in the Caribbean understand very well and the legacies of colonialism. And so what did it mean to to be independent and to be then going through this process of foreign, presence and, you know, control in many respects of your sovereignty? And then to start to chart the path for how the country could look coming out of that. And and it wasn’t just a path that was created anew in the thirties, into the forties, but it was also it was a path that was very much linked to Haiti’s long history going all the way back to 1804. Mhmm. And that’s really what was a huge motivation for me to do that.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:04:10]:
And in the work I discovered, and this is the second point, that Haiti was in many respects intellectually, culturally, artistically, in terms of also political movements, way ahead of the rest of the Caribbean at that Toussaint, certainly in terms of the way in which questions around black identity, black consciousness, and so on. Mhmm. We’re figuring into a very national, ethos around what being Haitian meant and what what a future for Haiti could mean. So all of those things really, you know, motivate me to really plunge deep into the study of that period.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:04:47]:
Mhmm. Yeah. And we’ll certainly get deeper into, some of those ideologies a little bit later. Now in the acknowledgment, yes, audience. I read the acknowledgment too when I read Toussaint the acknowledgment, you wrote about challenging discussion you had with colleagues that sort of helped you sharpen your your arguments for this book. One, what were some of the pushbacks or kind of arguments you faced? Also, did those arguments kinda reflect the the the arguments that were going on, in the with the Haitian radicals in the period you cover, which we’ll get to into a little bit later?
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:05:26]:
Yeah. Sure. Some of them were, I wouldn’t say pushback, per se. I would say I mean, when I say sharpening and the challenging questions, it’s really, some colleagues and particularly, you know, Haitian history, a couple of generations ahead of me, who are tremendously respected, were really sort of forcing me, and and to look at Haitian society completely, to not just see and examine the radicals and their ideas in relation to the state, but to see it as the ideas as a response to what was happening in hate at the time. To really look very closely beneath the veneer of of sort of, you know, state functioning or how particularly we as academics or historians are often trained to look at societies that there are certain groups with vested interests, and each one has its own way of arguing and developing its agenda. It was it was really a challenge to look beyond that and to realize that here is a society that’s like from the society I’m from Jamaica that’s complicated, and that people may not always, you know, advocate what you think they advocate. And and and there’s something in that that you need to look at and account for. And in particular, it was, the great Haitian history, Michel Hector, who I had the privilege of meeting, several times and early in the research I met him in Port au Prince.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:06:55]:
And, we had a really deep conversation about the history of the labor movement in Haitian, very, very deep. And, and again, I had come to him with certain presumptions based on the documents I was reading about affiliations and explanations for positions taken, and he he is the one who really pushed me to to not look so closely at that, but to think more more on a level that understood society and where society was at at that time. And that kind of of challenge, that kind of push, is something I I took with that work, but also something that I take with me through all the work that I do to really make sure that, you know, to quote the great Guyanese historian Elsa Corvall, that you see the society whole. Right? That has to be the task that you you you might be looking at political elites, but those political elites are operating in a society that is largely non elite and a society in which demands were being made from people and sources and areas quite different from from their own, and that has to be taken into context. So that’s that’s really what they meant.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:08:03]:
Okay. Yeah. What’s the significance of the colors red and black from the title of your book?
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:08:11]:
Yes. That’s, important one. I spent a lot of time closely thinking about the right title for the book. And that one really struck me, as the most appropriate one with several that I’d come up with. Red and black has multiple meanings. Of course, you know, red and black have, as colors, have a significance in voodoo. There’s also red and black having a significance in the, a game that had been played in Haiti going all the way back to the 19th century, if not before, where 2 die are rolled, a red die and a black die, and the numbers when they appear, they’re sort of like a game of chance. Right? So, you know, people would would roll the red and black die.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:08:51]:
Red and black, quite literally, could also refer to red being the communist and black being the nor east and the black consciousness side of the political debate that was raging in haitian the in the forties fifties. So you get that as well. And very importantly, by calling the book Red and Black and Not Black and Red, which, you know, always still irks me when sometimes when people, refer to the book incorrectly as black and red in Haiti because that’s that’s more a reference to Duvalierism, and this book is not about that. It’s about red and black, which is a very different different proposition altogether. So all those multiple, levels of meaning are in there, and I I felt that that title, spoke to, you know, the fact that what you see on on one side on the surface could mean something else quite differently depending on how you look at it. Very prismatic. And as as simple as the title is, it’s, it it actually evokes many more, multiple meanings that are that are very much part of Haitian history and life.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:10:00]:
On a on a scale of 0 to 10, 10 being David Nicole’s conclusion and, in his book, where you write that he argues color divisions supersede virtually all other issues. Where would you put colorism on that 0 to 10 scale? Also, touch on issues you have with Nicole’s conclusion regarding regarding the role of colorism.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:10:27]:
Yeah. I mean, the answer to the 0 to 10 one is really gonna depend on which period in Haitian history you’re looking at. But if we were to look at it broadly, you know, for the sake of discussion, I would say that that you may find it somewhere around 6 or 7. These things are always artificial anyway. But Mhmm. They they meant a lot at, questions of color meant a tremendous amount in the peer covered in that but quite certainly, definitely, and have meant a lot in social world in the social world of Haiti, always. Right? I mean, that that that emerges quite strongly. However, color, not only in Haiti, but in across the Caribbean, is a very, very tricky thing to get a hold of because it it has a a way as a sort of way of reading into activities of people in a society or even explaining a society.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:11:24]:
You can see things too dramatically divided along color lines that don’t account for the multiple other factors in which, you know, allegiances are formed, decisions made, and so forth, right, that have, other other elements other than color, as this, you know, as deciding factors. In the this was a big debate of the 19 forties. Right? Are we looking at questions of class or are we looking at questions of color? And often that debate took place interestingly among people who were of a of a social class that was, you know, what we could classify as elites, professionals, right, black new class and and people above that that station in Haitian society. So it’s looking at at it from one vantage point to suit a certain political need at a certain period in time. And again, this is something that if one were to peel behind the layers of many Caribbean and Latin American societies, you’d see the same haitian does that color doesn’t serve a function of separation. It does, and it and that function of separation that that it serves, often is is is, outcome of a situation in which people who seek to have control over other people use color as much as they use education, language, appearance, economic access, those sorts of things to be able to justify and legitimate their their social rule or or, you know, sort of superiority over others, and color figures into that. How how I differ from Nichols is that I see those complications much more, you know, much more strong in my mind. It and and my job really as a historian of the Caribbean is to account for those complications.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:13:27]:
What does it mean when somebody who you may think because of their color, because of their, even their political rhetoric should be on one side or making a certain Haitian. You see them do something else. You have to analyze why they do that something else. And what does that tell us about the the sort of fluid way in which these these these structures and these, you know, these sorts of ways of looking at the society blur in certain regards.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:13:57]:
Okay. Yeah. So, let’s let’s dive into post occupation Haiti, for a minute. It’s, 1934. I think we’re about 4 years into Stenor Vincenzo’s, I think 11 years. I think he will from from 1930 to 41, if I recall correctly. That’s right. So 11 years of administration, the US empire just left Haiti physically anyway.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:14:22]:
Mhmm. So pick it up from there. What’s going on in the country? Is it ideologically and politically in a kind of transitory state? Say up to 36. We’ll do 1937, after. What’s percolating in the country?
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:14:42]:
Lots of changes, lots of expectations, lots of a sense of hope and possibility that the ending of the US occupation, which is treated, you know, almost as if, a new post colonial phase is embraced as a moment in which the eras of the past that had created the situation for occupation in July 1915 had been outgrown. On one side, there were elites who believed that there were institutions now in place, left by the the Americans, but not just the Americans, but just by the circumstances of occupation. And by that, I mean, the the outpouring of, a sort of intellectually led resistance against foreign domination, which had sharpened the national consciousness in Haiti, going into the 19 thirties, that that could mature and evolve. And that energy, which was often, you know, a youthful energy in many many respects, could be translated into a new way of life, a new a new way of governance for Haiti. So that was a big part of of what was happening, in 1934. Interestingly, in subsequent research I did after, after I published red and black in Haitian discovered a lot of Pan Caribbean newspaper articles that were equally celebratory of the ending of the US occupation as Haitians were. That they this was a a moment for that reclaiming of the ideas and ideas of 1804, which were shared by people across the Caribbean, that that could happen in 1934. At the same time, and this is where my book starts, at the same time, there were divisions around how the future of Haiti should take shape and what it should look like.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:16:40]:
And those divisions operated, on a on a spectrum that ranged from a sort of status quo continuity of of of how social and political relationships have been arranged, especially from the period after 1920 coming down when there was so much, you know, institutionalization during the occupation of systems that promoted a light skinned elite, rulers, political administration, with vested powers and interests, and and not supported, a black middle class that was rising. And so that tension was there, and that tension was manifest in the sorts of political activities that I described in the book. The formation of a communist party, the formation the early sort of formation of a of a of a sort of nor east idea or or group of of ideas. I mean, this had always existed, as you know, in in Haiti going back to the 19th century, but there’s a different way in which that was being posed in the 19 thirties in which the possibility of a of a black new class intellectually driven control of the state could actually benefit the majority of people in Haiti. And that was, you know, a lot of what was happening with the work of the ethnographers at the time, ethnologists, and that sort of work. Yeah.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:18:05]:
So what is the definition of in the Haitian context?
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:18:11]:
Yeah. It it again, just like some of the stuff we said earlier, that’s gonna vary based on time. I mean, nor is in 1956 looks different from nor is in 1936. But in in the period that we’re looking at here in the thirties, it was essentially, an idea that looked at questions of color as fundamental, or in fact, reawaken these questions, because these were questions that had always been there, as fundamental to the future prospects of the country. So that means the ruling of the country by a group of, people who were more closely associated with the black majority of Haitians was read as being more beneficial to positive outcomes for Haiti. Mhmm. That’s a significant point. And and it is is is worth mentioning very quickly too, Patrick, that so many places in the Caribbean, at that point in time, particularly the English speaking, especially of the English speaking Caribbean here, were still colonized by Britain.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:19:17]:
And so the idea of, a black rule, a rule of a black middle class that speaks on behalf of the majority population was seen as quite revolutionary at the time for if you’re if you look at it from another part of the Caribbean, that’s still under colonial power in which the concept and even the imagination of a dark skinned person ruling the country was still far off. This is why when Paul Maguire came to Jamaica in the in the mid fifties, I mean, you know, I I met people when I was doing research for that book, Red and Black in Haiti, in Jamaica who remembered vividly how proud they were when Magua came came to visit, that there was a black man who was running our country that never seen that before. Mhmm. They had never thought that was possible before. So all of this was happening within a space of intensifying, political conflict. And a lot of that conflict sort of you know, if you could if I could find one reason for it, it was which idea would sort of, guide and and shape Haiti going into the 19 forties, and that that was the root of a lot of it. And and that becomes more intensified as we get into the forties.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:20:37]:
Mhmm. So, I’m I just wanna kinda get, some of the isms out of the way so, so the audience can get the context, you know, of of as we, you know, talk broadly later. What is, Haitian indigenous engine engineism?
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:20:53]:
Cultural movements that dominates in the 19 twenties that looks very closely at questions of Haitian life, folklore, culture, religion as being fundamental to Haitian identity in a way that had never really been explored before. So Creole, voodoo, folk tales, all of those things which had always which had often been seen as anachronistic holdovers were now celebrated as fundamental aspects of Haitian society and identity. And the best example of that is the great, great work of Jean, who really is a foundation figure for for Caribbean thinking about about about culture. And I hear there, I’m not even saying Haitian. I’m saying Caribbean. That’s how profoundly I hold Price Maas and his work. It was tremendous what he did and, and what he wrote about. And and, you you know, decades later, people would be picking up on things he said and not even knowing that what they’re doing, he had said before.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:21:57]:
So so auditionism really kind of comes out of, that movement. It wasn’t him alone. There are many others as well, but he sort of becomes a a a sort of central figure in that in that regard.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:22:09]:
Mhmm. Another is, the Narrative Movement. How does it differ from from the, from from from other from the other From Noyesim, for example? Well, it
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:22:23]:
differs quite markedly from Noyesim, but it’s much more closely related to haitian. Negritude is a is a cultural movement, and it it actually merges more broadly outside of Haiti, principally among 3 leading figures in the French Caribbean, says it Cesaire, and, oh, gosh. I’m forgetting the other person’s name. Forgive me on that. No.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:22:51]:
That’s fine. That’s fine.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:22:52]:
But but but but that starts in Paris when there are students in Paris, and they’re looking at the elements of black culture that that are being absorbed and embraced, and looking at narrative in the arts, in the music, in all of these various ways, very narrative, and reflecting that positive aspect to it. You know, up to the period of World War 1, and this is a very general statement, but I think it it it it is worth noting. The idea of Africa and African derived culture as being worth embracing and valuing, was was really not conceived of at all by many people, including people in the African diaspora Because the view was that European civilization was a defining civilization of the world and all your capacity to achieve as black people. You had to get closer to that. World War 1 showed just how violent this European civilization was. You know, the the the news of the war when that came back to us in the Caribbean shocked people that here we have been taught that the French and the British and the Spanish had all been these great civilized people who were bringing to to us the the the bounty and gift of their civilization to save us from ourselves, but they’re killing themselves in trench warfare. You know, and Marcus Gavi once said of his generation, we we are the generation made by the Great War. And by that, he meant we are the generation who who are awakened by the reality of what European civilization has done to itself and what it it it really is.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:24:33]:
And that emboldened this new search for, a black identity that was very much, driven and found in aspects of African and African derived culture in other parts of the world. And in in Haiti, the indigenous movement was one, strong aspect of that, and more broadly, narrative was another. Racism is a a a strictly political idea. It takes elements from, in particular, indigenism because, you know, the people who had started racism, who or who at least advocated it in its 19 thirties version, were sort of inspired by an indigenous movement, but they saw it more as a political movement. And what they they pushed was a political movement, but it was not a it was a political movement that absorbed cultural elements, but it was not a a movement that was as purely cultural as, the indigenous movement. And so for that reason, the cultural aspects were sort of almost, you know, anti responses in some in some aspects of norism to give that sort of kinship and tie to the indigenous movement, but it was not the same. That’s why Jean Christmass would later, state how upset he was when people linked him to Duvalier. He says, no.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:25:53]:
It’s not the same. What I was writing about and advocating in the twenties thirties was a cultural movement, was about understanding a deeper fundamental Haitian identity. It was not a justification for any political root from one group to another.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:26:28]:
You’re you’re quite fond of of Caribbean music. So this question has to deal with, something you write about how the marine invasion, brought 2 things to Haiti, 1 being American jazz and and the radio. Can you talk a little bit about the the group, Jazz de Jeune, and their role at the time?
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:26:52]:
Well, Jazz de Jeune is let me tell you a story about jaz de jean, Patrick, because I I’m smiling as I speak. It’s because, you know, you’re right. Music to me is fundamental to everything. It’s it’s a huge source of inspiration in many ways for, I would say, everything I do. But I think this will tell you this how imperialism think jazz Dijon was at the time, but also how important Haitian music is, and if we want to understand Haiti. There was someone I was interviewing as doing that book. And I went to interview this person who was a member of the labor movement, MAP, in the 19 forties, which had been led by Daniel Fignole. Mhmm.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:27:35]:
And he was a bit skeptical to interview me. And every time he was quite, you know, advanced in age at the time when we met, in in Port au Prince. And each question I’ve posed in, Patrick, he kept saying, he can’t remember that. He can’t remember that. Just because, you know, it was a painful memory for him to go back to that period because it really meant going back through the Duvalier years, back to that earlier period. Mhmm. But also, earlier period in which he was doing a lot of galvanizing on the ground with the with the urban workers. I mean, this was a person who’s deeply involved with that.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:28:12]:
Mhmm. So I wanted to understand the functioning of the labor movement. How how did it operate? I I I had gotten enough knowledge from my research on its ideas, its form its Haitian, and so on, and how it was really guided so heavily by Finole. But I wanted to get that deeper sense of the day by day. How you know, what happened each day? Where did they meet in in Port au Prince? Who organized the meet? Those sorts of details. I could get that sensibility for it. So each question I posed to him, he just kept giving me a sort of brick wall response. And at a certain point, I felt that this was going nowhere.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:28:56]:
So I began to relax and start to talk to him more casual. And in that casual conversation, I started Toussaint to him, you know, let me switch tack. Let me just ask you, you know, did he ever go to any jazz de jean shows? And he lit up. He lit up. And then I told him I told him about and and how much I enjoy their music and how that album Saturday Night in Port au Prince was one that I, you know, once I could I would always play, you know, it’s it’s music on on scene, but it’s, you know, it’s so lively, so vibrant. He got so alive, Patrick, when I mentioned that to him. He got up. He went behind, a a a sort of he had like a a piece of furniture that I barely noticed when we sat down.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:29:40]:
And then I saw it immediately when he got up and went towards it and pulled out a record, a jazz de jean record he had. And he put it on the record play and he was playing it. And we just sat down there listening to the music. And then about halfway through the first side of the record, he then turned to me much more relaxed and said, alright, let me tell you how Mop operated. And he just went, bam, straight into the whole history of of the labor union, deep history. And that’s how the code was broken through music. And that’s how music lifted that relay. And he and I became good friends after that.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:30:16]:
Every time I went to Haiti, I’d go look for him. I mean, he’s no longer with us, unfortunately. Mhmm. But but, you know, and and sometimes even if I never look for him, he’d find out where I was and find somebody to bring him to me. I mean, terrific guy, and all of that friendship that he and I had opened up because of Jazz de Jean. So that idea that that music, like other forms of culture, is this sort of glue, this sort of this sort of way of you finding a narrative for what you’re going through that often we can’t find the words for, but musicians do. And it’s not even words. It’s sounds.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:30:59]:
It’s screams. It’s wails. It’s those things that they find a way of expressing the sentiment of a larger group of people so powerfully. And even if it is sometimes light, and it can be very light, and it can be about dance, but Even if it is about that, there’s something in that that is also what we’re feeling. Joy, sadness, anger, all of those things and it can be expressed in the music. So for this person deeply involved in organizing labor unions and meetings and so on, that music defines so much for him more than any sort of quote I could give him from any book or newspaper I’ve been reading.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:31:37]:
Mhmm. What what was his name?
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:31:40]:
I’d I’d rather not say, if you don’t mind. Okay. Yeah. But but but though those those, those listeners and readers who would look at my book very closely might be able to figure it out. They can read between the lines in in some of what I’ve written.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:31:55]:
Alright. So so technology, radio, what did it do for the, for the radicals and their ideas?
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:32:03]:
Well, for the radicals and for all Haitians, it was a a way of of connecting more broadly. Right? I mean, radio really comes on stream, during this period covered in the book. And so there’s a way in which that that communal gathering around the radio and hearing a broadcast, was absolutely critical and crucial. And and, you know, this figured most importantly, I would argue, for the labor movement of MUP on the the charismatic Daniel Fionnoli. Fionnoli had this incredible, incredible presence. I mean, he was just tremendously magnetic. And everybody I interviewed, all the the things that I found and and people from that generation, will tell you that that there were really there are few people in 20th century Haitian politics who could compare to Daniel Fionole. Mhmm.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:32:55]:
And and and Fionole being able to present that in a certain way, in Creole, on radio with narrative heirs, and and also finding a way to translate terms that were used in the street and applying them in new political context. And even in in in his talk, creating new terms that then become reapplied in the street shows you that sort of that sort of communion he had, and that communion was heavily facilitated through radio. So radio was absolutely crucial for for that. There were debates on the radio. There were by the time we get to the, presidential campaign of 1957, you know, some of the contenders for that, for the presidential campaign would have, on air radio debate. So this is this was, you know, a major development at the time. And and, you know, even music broadcast, you know, coming on, on the radio. Right? I mean, the under his presidency, Magua, would have these concerts at the Palace, that would be broadcast, over the radio and people would get to hear them.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:34:08]:
I mean, it’s just a powerful, powerful tool for, for for sort of, you know, not only communicating ideas, but also giving the sense of community in itself, radio.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:34:22]:
And and that and that’s what is that you think how the, the black intellectuals found a way also to connect with with the with the peasantry or or with the popular masses. Right? Like, to connect their ideas because now they could people could hear him in in the remote parts of Haitian. Right? Who who perhaps don’t come from the same classes as,
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:34:48]:
Yeah. It was one way. But as yeah. But as we will know and and have to note, of course, that, you know, I’m from Jamaica, Patrick. So to me, Haiti is a big place. Right? Right. I mean, the first time I went to Haiti, I couldn’t. I I was surprised when people kept saying we’re a little island.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:35:04]:
I mean, it’s huge compared to where I’m from.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:35:07]:
Yeah. Yeah. But
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:35:08]:
but but you have to know that in each area you go, whether you’re in the north, southwest, or in the central part, or even near the border, that there are ways of doing things in each of these places. It’s not homogeneous, and it’s often misinterpreted as somehow being this homogeneous society, which is a gross, insult, really, to the diversity and complexity of Haiti. Yeah. And and so even though you they might have been able to broadcast on the radio, they understood and they had to understand that that could mean nothing to somebody Toussaint Louis du Nord unless you had some sort of other way of connecting to them or sharing me, unless you had a way to connect to them. Right? Mhmm. Or once that void, I mean, you have to be able to go there and know that and create these networks, which is why some of them could not leave the a certain location. Finial is great strength for all of what I’ve just said about in which which I I, you know, we can hold as, as very much not just part of this legend, but part of the reality. But it it it couldn’t really go that much further outside of Port au Prince because it was there had to be other things that that that would make that connection.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:36:16]:
And one of them was the press as well, because a lot of these radical groups that I document in the book, had their own radical organs, their own, presses and and and journals, and they use that as another way in which they could connect to people. But, of course, the reach of that beyond Puerto Princes, wasn’t always very far. Then, of course, there are regional presses and regional, imperialism. And there were there were versions of finial in other parts of of the island as well. Right?
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:36:47]:
Mhmm.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:36:48]:
You know, so we do sometimes obscure these realities if we sought to over focus on the centralization of Port au Prince. Mhmm. But allowing for that for those differences and those those important reminders I’ve just suggested. Radio achieved something that that couldn’t have been fully achieved before. By comparison, when Anthony, another great Haitian intellectual, Caribbean intellectual beyond Haiti by far, you know, so much so that there were people in other parts of the Caribbean who used to urge, you know, publishers in these places to translate Feynman’s work so that more people could read it. When Feynman was running for president against Nora Lexus, Nora Lexus who was a man of the North, who had strong deep roots and connections in the North, could go to the North and and parts of the north further out than Cap Haitian and basically say, you know, and also the south that he’s a light skinned man, don’t vote for him, which is not true. But because the reach and the awareness of of somebody like him in in other parts of Haiti was limited, that could be used to their advantage. Right? So radio sort of begins to bridge some of that.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:38:06]:
It never entirely bridges it, but it does open up spaces through which political aspirants could be heard beyond Port au Prince and beyond the sorts of realms in which they normally congregate and move.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:38:20]:
So so beware of the Republic of of, Port au Prince trap.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:38:25]:
Yes. Definitely. Thank
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:38:26]:
you. So, let’s let’s move to, 3738, the, Parsley massacre. What happened there for, you know, some in the audience who may not know, and, please discuss how Stenio, Vincent’s administration, Haitian, Vincent, and Trujillo, you know, their interactions during this tragic, period.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:38:51]:
Yeah. Well, what happened in 1937 was in in, the fall of 37, president Trujillo, the brutal dictator from the Dominican Republic, had issued, order for the murder of 100, thousands of Haitians living on the border. And this is a very dark moment in the history of both counter, and again, the history of the Caribbean. And and it was extreme violence that was motivated by racism. It was motivated by, despotism, and it was motivated by a sort of power hungry way of controlling or seeking to control the all, realms of of the Dominican Republic at the time, including that area on the border, which, had always been as it is today, as we know, a very fluid area that has this this interchange of Haitians and Dominicans. But the massacre spoke to a the Parsley moment in 37. It spoke to that deeper underlying, on animosity between the two countries that occupy Hispaniola, taken to an ugly and brutal and horrific extreme by the president at the time Trujillo. There is it’s a very layered event.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:40:23]:
And without going too much into all of the layers beyond what I’ve said so far, because there’s some very good historians that that, for any listener out there would do well to read, the his the histories of this. You know, American history, Lauren Derby and Richard Turritz have done, you know, tremendous work interviewing people back, I think, in the eighties nineties, who are survivors who had lived through that that period and getting very vivid testimony of the operation that was carried out by Trujillo. What I’d like to say though is Toussaint response to your question, Patrick, was the was the way in which the Haitian state, as well as the Dominican state responded to this massacre. Now, Trujillo, his motivations, as I said, were driven by our our our complex of things, that fundamentally hinged in my view on this deep seated racism towards Haitians. And, then saw as a president of Haiti at the time, and Hille Lascaux, future president of Haiti, but at the time, Haitian minister to the Dominican Republic, took little action to act to to, to deal with this issue, on behalf of their country and their countrymen and women. And a lot of the reason why was in some senses a fear of Trujillo at the time because Trujillo being, a staunch, despotic, dictator, had also allied with, various groups in Haiti, political groups of which, let’s go and then some were connected. So there was this fear that there would be exposure there as well. So it’s political self interest won over national interest in the end, in in how that that that that that horror was, dealt with.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:42:18]:
And in the book in my book, I go into some discussion of that, looking particularly at how 1937 became a moment of great detachment from the people who had bought into the rhetoric of second liberation that that, Vincent sold. That that 1934 was a moment of Haiti’s second liberation, and he was a liberator and all of that stuff. It was very clear that that’s not what what was happening with the news of what happened, and it also strengthened and solidified a movement against against Vincent’s rule that would eventually mature, a few years later once once we get into the 19 forties.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:43:02]:
Mhmm. I wanna discuss I want you to, explain to us the, the u 2 US, Hemispheric policies, the, the big stick narrative, and the Louverture, a good neighbor policy. Why why were those 2, policies important within, the Haitian context and the Haitian radicals at the time?
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:43:28]:
Right. Big stick actually starts earlier, that’s associated with president Theodore Roosevelt, and the idea was United States commercial expansion into the Americas. And, when that happened, that if the countries that United States wanted to go into were in any way opposed to it, that the United States could intervene when it so decided to quote, unquote correct them and make them see the light that would that was really emanating from from US foreign policy and not from national interest in the countries there. And so it it’s really it it it’s a it’s a term that derives from a quote attributed to Roosevelt that you must walk quietly, but carry a big stick. Meaning, you know, once the might of US power was shown and demonstrated, people would eventually fall in line. And in some ways, that big sick policy consciousness has been a defining aspect of US foreign policy for a very long time, long after, Roosevelt’s era, of course, and going well into our own century. Good neighbor policy was meant to be a redress of that. It’s most associated with the other Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, even though some of its initial framing had been instituted by Herbert Hoover.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:44:58]:
But after Franklin Roosevelt comes to the presidency in 1932 in the United States, He pushes through a foreign policy that’s non interventionist. And it’s around this time that you begin to see US withdrawal from some places, including Haitian the idea, of course, is not that, marine or military withdrawal means an ending of US influence. Not at all. That US influence continues and and continues to shape, invisibly sometimes, sometimes very visibly, how are the how the United States sorts of functions in its relations with its neighbors. But it meant that in terms of the actual, boots on the ground type of intervention that the good neighbor policy was the anti was was sold as the antithesis of that. That the United States would seek through organizations like the OAS Haitian of American States to be a mediating force, to offer diplomatic guidance, to assist where it can, but not to intervene, in in other countries. So that’s essentially the 2 guiding concepts of big stick and good neighbor policy. Now whether or not they were adhered to is another thing.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:46:11]:
Mhmm. Because we have seen, we need not go into the long history of US intervention Yeah. You know, throughout the world. Now as it affects Haiti and Haitian radicals, it’s very clear to many Haitian radicals at the time after the occupation ended, the so called good neighbor policy errors that the United States influence in the direction of Haitian politics remain absolutely strong and clear and apparent. Very, very true and very, very, obvious. Mhmm. And so that that that affects the way in which people, you know, sort of the confidence they have in state leadership as it was then, where they begin to realize that their their state leaders, Vincent Lescaut, were, ultimately aligning themselves with, United States’ prerogatives.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:47:05]:
What, ultimately caused, Senor Vincennes’ demise, why he couldn’t get a 3rd a 3rd term? What were some of the causes for that?
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:47:17]:
It’s a con that that’s a complicated one, but one of them is I mean, if if if I was to simplify, there there had been a sort of breakaway from in the Haitian army at the time. Well, they weren’t called the army yet, but it was the, the guardite that became the army a few years later. And that that discontent within the the armed forces with Vinsal was an important thing. There was a sergeant’s revolt that had largely not succeeded, but it had demonstrated that he was losing favor from, the revolution of of the Haitian state.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:47:55]:
Mhmm.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:47:56]:
So that was important. The other thing is that, you know, we can’t underestimate how he mishandled or, you know, the the 1937 massacre by Trujillo, which also worked in thought of, you know, losing his popularity. And then another standing issue that we see in Haitian political history, that there are other people who wanted his position. There are other people who wanted to become president, who felt that their time had come, and that’s and that Vincent shouldn’t remain in power any longer. And and that sort of cracking within the structure that had enabled his presidency. All of that is happening around the same time. And the United States as well begins to feel that if they continue to support themselves in power, it could lead to a political unraveling in Haiti that could also, by in turn, lead have negative consequences for their own interests in Haiti. Mhmm.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:48:57]:
So combined, all of these things led to the, the the the last phase of the Vincent year years in in 1941.
00:00 “Red and Black in Haiti” explores unexplored history.
05:26 Colleagues challenged me to look at Haitian society.
08:51 The title “Red and Black” holds deep meaning.
11:24 Color isn’t the only factor in society.
14:42 Hope for new era after US occupation.
19:17 Revolutionary idea of black rule in Caribbean.
22:52 Paris students exploring black culture in art.
28:56 Relaxed conversation, connection over jazz music.
32:03 Radio vital for connection and labor movement.
35:08 Haiti’s diverse regions and need for connections.
36:48 Radio bridged regional divides in Haiti using 7 words.
40:23 Trujillo’s massacre driven by racism, political interests.
43:28 Roosevelt’s big stick policy shapes US foreign relations.
47:56 Trujillo’s mishandling, opposition to Vincent’s rule.
00:00 The author’s book on Haitian history stemmed from personal curiosity and dissatisfaction with existing literature.
05:26 The speaker was challenged to look beyond the surface of Haitian society and consider its complexity.
08:51 The book title “Red and Black” has multiple political and historical meanings in Haitian context.
11:24 Color divisions oversimplified; class, alliances; color used for control and superiority justified by other factors.
14:42 After US occupation, Haiti embraces hope, change, and national consciousness for new governance in 1934.
19:17 The idea of a black middle class ruling Jamaica was revolutionary in the 1950s, and sparked political conflict.
22:52 Students in Paris explore black culture, narrative in arts, music, and the positive aspect. World War 1 shattered the perception of European civilization.
28:56 They chatted casually and he got excited about jazz.
32:03 Radio played a critical role in connecting Haitians, especially for the labor movement led by charismatic Daniel Fionnoli.
35:08 Haiti’s diverse cultural and regional differences must be acknowledged and understood to communicate effectively.
36:48 The text discusses the impact of radio in Haiti and how it bridged geographical and social divides.
40:23 Historians studied Trujillo’s massacre, the Haitian state’s response, and political self-interest influenced the handling of the horror.
43:28 Big Stick policy, associated with Theodore Roosevelt, symbolized US intervention in Americas; continued as defining aspect of US foreign policy.
47:56 Issues with Trujillo, internal opposition, and US concerns threaten Vincent’s presidency in Haiti.
Episode Overview: “Red and Black in Haiti: Radicalism, Conflict, and Political Change, 1934-1957”
The Historical Context of Haiti
- Stenio Vincent declining popularity due to mishandling of the 1937 massacre
- Rising internal political rivalry
- The United States’ concerns over potential political instability
The Role of Media in Haitian Politics
- The spread of political thought via radio
- Parsley Massacre and inadequate response from Haitian leaders
- The impact of US hemispheric policies on Haitian radical movements
The Demise of Stenio Vincent’s Presidency
- Factors contributing to Vincent’s inability to secure a third term
Social and Political Movements
- The emergence of a black middle class in 1950s Haiti
- The influence of Paul Maguire’s visit to Jamaica
- Haitian indigenous engineism and Narrative Movement
Cultural Influences
- Racism as inspired by the indigenous movement
- Significance of Jazz de Jeune and American jazz integration
Perspectives on Traumatic Historical Periods
- An elder MAP labor movement member’s reluctant remembrance
Authorial Insights: Dr. Matthew Smith
- Introduction to Dr. Smith’s book, “Red and Black in Haiti”
- Motivations and challenges faced during the research
- Exploration of the post-US occupation era and subsequent societal changes
Exploring Haitian Political Debates and Colorism
- The interpretation of “Red and Black” as political symbolism
- Rating the significance of colorism in Haitian history
Haiti’s Shifting Political Landscape
- The ideological divide over Haiti’s governance direction
- The Nordeste concept and black majority rule advocacy
Personal Engagement and Stories
- Dr. Smith’s experience with a labor union organizer
- The unifying power of Jazz de Jean music
Radio as a Cultural and Political Tool
- Facilitating wider communication of ideas
- Limitations and the necessity for regional engagement methods
Radical Movements’ Geographic Outreach
- Challenges in extending influence beyond Port au Prince
- The importance of diverse communication strategies within Haiti
Understanding Haiti’s Place in Caribbean Identity: “My book, Red and Black in Haiti, really developed out of work that I had done as a PhD when I was a student many years ago, at University of Florida. And that was when, sort of curiosity that I had for a very long time around the the history of Haiti and how integral that history the who we are as Caribbean people.”
— Dr. Matthew Smith [00:01:48 → 00:03:14]
Insights on Historical Perspective: “to not just see and examine the radicals and their ideas in relation to the state, but to see it as the ideas as a response to what was happening in Haiti at the time.”
— Dr. Matthew Smith [00:05:52 → 00:06:03]
Analyzing Racial and Social Dynamics: “You can see things too dramatically divided along color lines that don’t account for the multiple other factors in which, you know, allegiances are formed, decisions made, and so forth, right, that have, other other elements other than color, as this, you know, as deciding factors.”
— Dr. Matthew Smith [00:11:24 → 00:11:43]
Post-Colonial Hope in Haiti: “Lots of changes, lots of expectations, lots of a sense of hope and possibility that the ending of the US occupation, which is treated, you know, almost as if, a new post colonial phase is embraced as a moment in which the eras of the past that had created the situation for occupation in July 1915 had been outgrown.”
— Dr. Matthew Smith [00:14:42 → 00:15:05]
Racial and Social Divide in Historical Haiti: “And so that tension was there, and that tension was manifest in the sorts of political activities that I described in the book. The formation of a communist party, the formation the early sort of formation of a of a of a sort of nor east idea or or group of of ideas.”
— Dr. Matthew Smith [00:17:18 → 00:17:37]
The Influence of African Culture in Early 20th Century Paris: “But that starts in Paris when there are students in Paris, and they’re looking at the elements of black culture that that are being absorbed and embraced, and looking at narrative in the arts, in the music, in all of these various ways, very narrative, and reflecting that positive aspect to it.”
— Dr. Matthew Smith [00:22:52 → 00:24:33]
Cultural Diversity in Haiti: “It’s not homogeneous, and it’s often misinterpreted as somehow being this homogeneous society, which is a gross, insult, really, to the diversity and complexity of Haiti.”
— Dr. Matthew Smith [00:35:19 → 00:35:30]
The Impact of Radio in Haiti: “Radio achieved something that that couldn’t have been fully achieved before.”
— Dr. Matthew Smith [00:37:04 → 00:37:09]
The Impact of Political Self-Interest on National Tragedies: “So it’s political self interest won over national interest in the end, in how that that that that that horror was, dealt with.”
— Dr. Matthew Smith [00:42:07 → 00:42:13]
Big Stick Policy: “you must walk quietly, but carry a big stick.”
— Dr. Matthew Smith [00:44:14 → 00:44:17]
Ideological Challenges in Academic Discussions: “you wrote about challenging discussion you had with colleagues that sort of helped you sharpen your your arguments for this book.”
— Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:05:02 → 00:05:11]
The Impact of Colorism: “On a scale of 0 to 10, 10 being David Nicole’s conclusion and, in his book, where you write that he argues color divisions supersede virtually all other issues.”
— Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:10:00 → 00:10:26]
Post-Occupation Haiti: “I think he will from from 1930 to 41, if I recall correctly. That’s right. So 11 years of administration, the US empire just left Haiti physically anyway.”
— Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:14:10 → 00:14:22]
The State of the Nation’s Ideals: “What’s going on in the country? Is it ideologically and politically in a kind of transitory state?”
— Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:14:24 → 00:14:31]
Understanding Haitian Culture: “What is, Haitian indigenous engine engineism?”
— Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:20:48 → 00:20:52]
Narrative Movement vs Noyesim: “How does it differ from from the, from from from other from the other From Noyesim, for example?”
— Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:22:14 → 00:22:22]
Influence of American Jazz on Haitian Music: “the marine invasion, brought 2 things to Haiti, 1 being American jazz and and the radio.”
— Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:26:36 → 00:26:43]
Bridging Intellectuals and The Masses: “the black intellectuals found a way also to connect with the peasantry or with the popular masses.”
— Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:34:22 → 00:34:46]
The Parsley Massacre: “What happened there for, you know, some in the audience who may not know, and, please discuss how Stenio, Vincent’s administration, Haitian, Vincent, and Trujillo, you know, their interactions during this tragic, period.”
— Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:38:34 → 00:38:51]
US Hemispheric Policies and Haiti: “I wanna discuss I want you to, explain to us the, the u 2 US, Hemispheric policies, the, the big stick narrative, and the Louverture, a good neighbor policy.”
— Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:43:04 → 00:43:18]
- How did the discontent within the Haitian army contribute to the political changes in Haiti between 1934 and 1957, and what impact did it have on the fall of Vinsal?
- Can you elaborate on how the 1937 Parsley Massacre influenced Haitian politics and the relationship between Haiti and the Dominican Republic during that period?
- In what ways did United States policies, such as the “big stick” and the “good neighbor” policies, affect the political landscape and radical movements in Haiti?
- How did radio technology transform political discourse in Haiti, particularly for political aspirants and the spread of radical ideas beyond Port au Prince?
- The emergence of a black middle class ruling Haiti in the 1950s was seen as revolutionary. How did this shift challenge the status quo, and what were the long-term implications for Haitian society?
- How did movements like Haitian indigenous engineism and the Narrative Movement contribute to national identity and the politics of race in Haiti during the mid-20th century?
- What significance did Jazz de Jeune hold in Haitian society, and how did it correlate with social and political movements at the time?
- Dr. Smith mentioned the challenging discussions with colleagues and historians while researching for his book. What specific challenges did he face, and how did they shape his understanding of Haiti’s political history?
- Discuss the symbolism of the title “Red and Black in Haiti” in the context of the political debate throughout the 1940s and 1950s in Haiti. Why were colorism and the symbolism of red versus black so integral to this time period?
- Given the limitations of radio and press in connecting with the entire Haitian society, what other methods did radical movements and intellectuals employ to engage with different regions and demographics within the country?
Haitian army, sergeant’s revolt, Stenio Vincent, 1937 massacre, Trujillo, political instability in Haiti, radio in Haiti, Parsley massacre, US hemispheric policies, big stick narrative, good neighbor policy, Haitian politics, Stenio Vincent, black middle class, Paul Maguire, Jamaica, Haitian indigenous, folklore, culture, religion, Haitian identity, Narrative Movement, Negritude, Racism, Jazz de Jeune, MAP labor movement, Duvalier dictatorship, Red and Black in Haiti, communism, black consciousness, colorism, post-US occupation Haiti, Nordeste, labor union organizer, music expression, personalized communication, regional presses, organ journals, radical movements, Port au Prince.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:00:00]:
Okay. So I think it’d be a good time now to move to, to Lisco, daily Lisco, 41 to 45. You you you you say that his his his era was critical for the development of radicalism in Haitian, in in what sense?
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:00:20]:
He’s coming out of the war. He he he so happened to have been president at the time in which the world was at war. And, after the war ended, there was again a sort of new, world war 2 that is there was a sense of an of a new kind of radical democracy.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:00:41]:
Mhmm.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:00:42]:
And and that radical democracy when mixed with the type of political consciousness that had been growing and widening among, radical elites in Haiti from the thirties created the an opportunity for this coalescence of ideas, socialist ideas, communist Marxist ideas, which had previously been seen almost entirely as an elite, you know, people with privilege who could think, who could have the opportunity to think these ways and have that level of exposure Toussaint French Marxism, which some of them did, that had now become, an option that young people at the university were now engaged with and discussing and became aware of. So that’s happening at that point in time. That’s that that sort of fueling this and I should add though very quickly that the marxism that we’re talking about in hate in this period is not the kind of Racism that we’ll see later on even in Haiti but in other parts of the world come Haitian revolution. Right? That’s a different sort of that’s a different sort of Racism. And, you know, there’s a lot of good work that’s been done by Haitian historians who have looked very closely at the question Racism, you know, took shape in Haitian, including the, you know, Rene Despasse, the writer, who was a teenager at the time. Despasse has written about this his own upbringing and saying that a lot of their exposure to Racism really came through, the few books they’re able to get through the, the French embassy. Mhmm. There was somebody in the French embassy, who whose name escapes me at the moment who, you know, was sort of sympathetic to these young writers, and intellect tools and would give them books.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:02:36]:
And in some of those books, it would be, some of them would be written by Marxists. So there’s a way in which Racism when it comes to the Caribbean, and it’s not unique again to Haiti. You see it in other parts of the Caribbean. If you look closer to the history of Racism there, comes through these these various channels that are not direct streams, but then become interpreted. It becomes interpreted in relation to power structures in the places where they are. And that was what was happening in Haiti under the LESCO period. Right? So LESCO was becoming starting to look like Franco and LESCO was starting to look, you know, like like like power honker European rulers. Mhmm.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:03:15]:
And and the alternative to that was a communal alternative that marxism, had promised the sort of marxism they were reading at the time. Mhmm. There there was a developed communist party in the Hispanic Caribbean Mhmm. That that was that was more entrenched and had a, you know, stronger sort of footing and Cuba of course being extremely important in that regard I mean the history of the Cuban communist party is is a big one. Mhmm. But there was also a communist party in the Dominican Republic largely underground, a socialist party rather that didn’t have a lot of prominence, but but there were still networks there. So so the LESCO years, and I think I had mentioned in the book that he had a sort of misfortune of coming to power. So this is a man who really wanted power badly.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:04:06]:
And he comes to power when he finally gets it, he had maneuvered, negotiated, skillfully, organized himself in terms of his career and in terms of his alliances so that he could become president, and it happened. And as it happened, there is this other force that’s growing in Haiti, which I generally refer to as as imperialism. But, you know, that needs to be unpacked to look at what I mean by that. There’s a who are also sharpening through their experiences, you know, their ideas through their experiences in Haiti on the list go, but also through their own personal experiences. Duvalier becomes a doctor. He spends some time in Michigan studying there. So they’re maturing. They’re being exposed.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:04:53]:
They’re reading more widely, and all of this is is being rolled into the way in which they’re seeing Haitian society. And and, of course, it is in Velasco years that Daniel Finole becomes emergent as a very important voice. And and it’s a sort of rapid emergence too for for Finole, but it’s very significant. So, I mean, to me, this is a really exciting period in Haitian history. Absolutely fascinating because you have you have on the one hand people like Jacques Coume, Max, Max, these very well known left of center radical intellectuals who are, you know, they’re reading about poetry and art the same time they’re reading Marx and Engels, and the same time they’re reading about voodoo, and the same time they’re they’re trying to understand their country by going into the countryside and and listening and looking and absorbing. Then you have Jean Christmass, the dean of so much of that that that sort of interest and intellectual thought, still very active, still writing tremendously, about a lot of these issues. Then you have Duvalier and Lorraine Madonie doing their work as well, which some of it is is actually very interesting work, Thick work, no doubt, in the sense that it it’s layered with so much ethnographic, work that they’re looking at and and and some some of it seems so overly, scientific that it’s difficult to fully understand, but it’s still demonstrating a level of engagement with with with with with something, a level of reading, a revolution trying to adapt science to understanding society. And all of this is that all of this is happening.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:06:46]:
And you have Daniel Finole, in in the middle of of this emerging as this charismatic galvanizing leader. I mean, do do Valle and Duny published in 1945 their book, the problem of class throughout the history of Haiti. And in that book, they go through the whole of Haitian history really trying to understand class, which is almost synonymous with color in the way they describe it
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:07:08]:
Mhmm.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:07:09]:
As an explanatory tool. And the one thing that unites all of these various groups that I trace in that book is this this commitment sense that hate it can be something else and they have the right idea to take it in this other direction. So all that is happening. And let’s not forget, of course, that there is a social elite that controls a lot of the social and economic power in the country that wants a place to stay exactly as it was and they don’t want it to change. Mhmm. So there’s there’s there’s bound to be all sorts of collisions in in that sort of scenario.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:07:45]:
And and one of the pushbacks, came from the Catholic church and the urban bourgeoisie. Right? Can you talk about the anti superstition campaign?
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:07:55]:
Yeah. This was a a campaign that was launched by the church, and was one of several a series of of of different levels of success of campaigns to try and fight against voodoo, which was seen as retrograde and anti modern and and all of those things. But also, it was part of their own way of trying to dominate and and and, you know, assert control at a time when there was a fear of protestant religions beginning to emerge and spread in Haiti. And so voodoo was was, attacked then as it had been attacked many times before and and and after, but in a very systematic way. That’s why the anti superstition campaign, is important because of the systematic way in which voodoo was attacked. And and this meant, use of members of the Haitian military to go to, voodoo temples and to to destroy them, to burn the drums, to, in some cases, there are reports of beating of UGA, beating of people, all of that. It backfired eventually, and this happened on the less go, and it backfired terribly because, it it it let’s go, I think I mean, my view of let’s go is that let’s go try to use the sorts of power, strategies of politics that had got him very far in his life up to the presidency. He tried which is essentially satisfying one group while closing up to another.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:09:31]:
And that worked to get him, you know, his diplomatic positions, his, his position in Washington DC where he was Haitian foreign minister to the United States. And it worked with him to become president, but it couldn’t work in the maelstrom of the 19 forties when he was president. So, like, essentially, giving a carte blanche to the Catholic church. I don’t think Lesco supported what they were doing fundamentally. They felt that would be one way Toussaint to continue to get the security of support from the church, which is which is then a very important player in, in Haitian power politics. Mhmm. The same way he did something like that with the military, it didn’t work. It it it it’s a very different scale of conflict that you’re setting up when you do that at the presidential revolution that’s what backfired on him.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:10:24]:
And so that continued to alienate alienate people from him as did the the the rubber the rubber planting thing Shaddah. Yes. Get done with the Americans.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:10:34]:
Yes. You know we Yeah. Please talk about that. Talk about Shaddah, please.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:10:38]:
But very quickly, I’ll just say that what happened there was that during world war 2, supplies of rubble to the United States war effort had been cut off because the access powers, that’s Germany, Japan, Italy, had blockaded, the routes coming from parts of Malaysia. So the United States needed to find an alternative supplier for the rubber that’s used in boots, used in tanks, used in so much aspects of of war fighting on the front line. They discovered that they didn’t really discover. It was it was known, actually. I think it had started all the way back with some French explorers in the early 20th century who had done some work in Haitian. But it was it was discussed that there was a type of rubber planting that could grow in Haitian, that that could grow quickly in Haiti, that could supply the needs of the US war for forces and their, war production. And so for that reason, they signed a deal with the Haitian. They approached the Haitian government, and LESCO was all too happy to sign a deal with the United States, which, gave them the opportunity to, to build these rubber plantations in Haiti.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:11:52]:
Now it was sold to the Haitian people as an opportunity to develop agriculture. So rubber would be one agricultural industry of several. So that’s why they call it society, Haitian American society for agricultural development would be the English translation. And so the plan was that the, rubber would be the first of a series of agricultural enterprises that would be funded jointly by the Haitian government state with support from the United States to, supply these markets that need this this product. LESCO went behind this very vigorously. Now one of the reasons I argue why LESCO did that was because LESCO wanted to continue to get the support to United States, which was pivotal in his coming to the presidency. And LESCO also wanted to fulfill a certain desire that his predecessor, Vincent, had as well, which is to be the modernizing Haitian president, the president who brings modernity to Haiti finally. Mhmm.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:13:04]:
But what in reality, and I’d and let’s go knew this too. I don’t this is why I said that I don’t think let’s go fully grasp the scale of what he was operating within that period. But in reality, what Shada ends up doing is that it displaces displaces thousands of Haitian peasants. So land that belonged to the peasants were confiscated to be turned over to rubber planting. It’s a complicated system, and I’ve you know, there are lots of documents on this, some of which I’ve recently been looking at that that that shows just how complicated it was because it also seems to me that there are members, both Haitian American, who are part of the project who actually believed in the sorts of fever of the war, that this could be a way of reviving the Haitian economy. So I don’t think it was. It’s interesting that it wasn’t completely, malevolent from the beginning. Mhmm.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:13:58]:
But but it was selfish. It was meant in in essence to fulfill a US market demand, with little regard for the cost of that fulfillment on behalf of the Haitian Haitian peasantry. Yeah. That’s what that’s when it backfired. And and and worse still was that the first I think it only lasted for about 2 years. And but the first yields of the rubber that was planted, and this is, I think, 41, 42, around then, were far less than than projected. And so, again, just like the anti superstition campaign, like, so many moves that Lesko was doing, it backfired against against him. And just and while that’s while it’s backfiring in 44, we get into the closing stage of World War 2, and getting into that that space that I described earlier in which, young radical Haitians are becoming absolutely disenchanted with any form of rule that is self serving unless goes government, sir, looked extremely self serving.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:15:07]:
Mhmm. And all the and so on and so forth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So now, he’s gone. Iskim. Right? His his, his supporters.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:15:22]:
They they sort of you know, they’re the real hope for social reform, let’s say, I think, late 46 or something like that. Can you talk about estimay and his supporters?
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:15:33]:
Yes. You know, one of the the the Haitian presidents of the 20th century that never really got his due if you ask me. This is not to say that he was faultless. I would never say that at all. In fact, in the book, I go through a lot of Estimate’s faults. Yes. But Estimate was very much a man of a period in which there was a sense of destiny and direction in Haitian. And he seemed to to feel and feel that’s that as a personal mission.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:16:12]:
And so you mentioned social reform. There was a part of that believe that part of his mission as much as a national mission was to reform the society. And and to do so, he invested a lot of time and energy into, thinking through possible directions for for aspects of Haitian life and society that had never really been rooted in terms of, you know, opportunity. I mean, opportunity. I mean, take for instance, the labor movement. Right? The labor movement had always sort of functioned in a sort of loose way. He he actually began to develop a a way through the state of organizing a labor movement, in which Haitian workers, urban workers, as you take considerate and have space to air grievances. Those are things that that haitian existed before.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:17:07]:
Minimum wage issues, looking at questions of the census, for instance. Mhmm. How how do you create a census to actually get a proper stare on what the society looked like, how many people were there, those sorts of things. These are all aspects of social reform. But again, he comes to power at a time in which the sort of, you know, the sort of atomizing groups around the radicals. That is the groups that are have one view against another hit each other and then sparks fly. There’s a lot of that happening in estimates first here in in in power. So he creates this cabinet, which is like a coalition cabinet.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:17:50]:
He has Finnioli in there. He has people from the haitian there. He has people from the the Narrative group who supported him. There are people who have already started to break away from Fignola. Duvalier is working with Fignola, and then he breaks away from him. You know, he he has members of of the light skinned elite there. He tries to counter, you know, what Abraham Lincoln once called a team of rivals. Right? Or that’s been said of Lincoln.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:18:16]:
Like, you take these people in opposition and say, look, can we bury the hatchet and use all our great ideas, all our tremendous energy to make Haiti a better place and sit down at the table and be part of the same government and come up with plans and solutions for the country. He tried that. Didn’t work. And I did the reason why it didn’t work is that Fignoli had plans for education. Somebody else had plans for tourism. Somebody else had plans for economic development, all of those things. And all of that sort of collision, that sort of of of people hitting each other and sparking was because there were so many heavy heavy ideas and and feelings and, emotions around the direction of hate at that time that were that were there, and it was difficult for for that to be smoothed out. At the same time, Estimate was trying to find this is my view of estimate on a personal level now.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:19:14]:
How do you get that balance between creating something new? Right? A force for change in Haitian. But at the same time, doing so in a political culture in which power and what it looked like had been predetermined and set by your predecessors. Because remember, this is this is a person, a man who had come up through the Haitian political system to to to reach where he was. Right?
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:19:44]:
Mhmm.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:19:45]:
And he had achieved a lot too because this is somebody who was born in, and he had moved from there into, doing well in school and becoming a member of the cabinet on the VINSA, you know, tore the line, played the game, did politics really well, and then got to this point. So he was a statesman, but then he’s a statesman who has to somehow find a way of breaking that political culture that had been part of his own Haitian, that that had had been a source of his creation as a politician, and also listening to the will of a very varied group of people who had their own ideas and their own energy and forces and aspirations for what Haiti could be. And and he’s doing that within a context in which the United States continues to to tighten the screws of its control on Haiti. Right? Continues to tighten that through its counter, the economy, through its its its counter its diplomatic pressures on Haiti, all of those things. So he sees himself as a man of destiny with a mission. He sees and reads the tea leaves in terms of the cultural direction of the of the country at that time. This is the era of. This is the era of the labor movement.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:21:01]:
This is the era of the of a independent Haitian press. He sees all of that as important. It’s the era of a black consciousness in Haiti where that that sense, not not just of color, you know, but that sense of your identity as a Haitian being so fundamental tied to your identity with Africa and to those elements of your of Africa that have shaped the Haitian nation state and the or or shape the Haitian psyche and consciousness are is being really understood and embraced very powerfully. Creole, all of these things become part and parcel who you are. And he sees himself as that man who who has that incredible privilege of leading the country on your direction. But it’s these these are tremendous constraints all around him. A big constraint too and determining constraint on estimate is the role of the Haitian army. He names it the Haitian army.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:21:58]:
It searches from God IT to Haitian army on the estimate. And the Haitian army has within it people who are in the top brass of the army. People have their own ideas of of how power should look and and and, you know, be shaped in Haiti. And he’s he’s in friction with them. So this is a so the estimate years are very short. From August 1950 to, or sorry. August 1946 to, early 1950. They’re very short years.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:22:32]:
Mhmm. And all of what I’ve just described was happening in those short years. He’s being squeezed into our corner, and it’s a difficult proposition for him to find his way out of. And in the end, that political culture factor of what had how politics had operated in Haiti won out, and that is what he craves to. Let me stay in power longer. Let the concept of democracy be further delayed so that I can actually carry Haiti across the bridge to where it needs to go. And that terrifies people because once you want to stay in power longer, all or you make any moves to demonstrate that you’re gonna stay in power longer. All of these various groups, even those who are saying that they’re your friends, and Simeon had a lot of people in in in his cabinet and and in the Haitian government at the time who sympathize, wrote I mean, he can read in the newspapers of the period how how celebratory they were of him.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:23:37]:
But behind, when he did that, they started to sharpen their knives and form allegiances with groups that they wouldn’t have before. Whether it’s the Catholic church, the army, Trujillo, whoever it was, the United States, to try and undermine him so that he could get out. And that was, that was the ultimate undoing, for estimates. So when he started to move towards a reliance on a popular force to keep him in power against the will and growing strength of his opposition who were making this uneasy alliance, as I just said, with these other groups. That that was when it was clear to estimate, would be overthrown. So in some sense, there’s a bit of of sadness in it because you feel that were the circumstances different. Perhaps it might have been a way that some of all some of those reformist policies that he had started within the 1st 2 years, some of which to be to be fair, were abandoned in the last 2 years of his presidency, but some of them were started in the first 2 years, might have grown into something. But I think it’s a it’s a it’s an era that that that deserves, you know, more attention and study and and teaching and trying to understand Haiti.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:25:13]:
So, I know you you don’t go, you know, too deeply into Duvalier. Can you so he comes in under what circumstances and and and how did he use all the machinations that occurred and the estimate to to come to power?
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:25:33]:
Well, when Duvalier comes to power 6, 7 years after estimate, is overthrown, Duvalier comes in a completely different climate than estimate. 1956 is not 1946 by any stretch of the imagination even though some of the players are the same. And even though Duvalier keeps talking about himself as the fulfillment of the estimated dream. In fact, you know, what happened when LESCO was overthrown in January 46 was referred to as a revolution of 46. And and Duvalier used that term a lot in his political speeches. Right? That he was he was going to, fulfill the ideals of that revolution. But, again, the context was so deeply, chaotic in 1957. You know, it was a very messy period in Haitian politics.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:26:29]:
The implosions that I described under the estimate period, became explosive by the 19 fifties. Groups that had somehow begun to enjoy some degree, you know, limited as it was, but some degree of movement and space found that movement and space closing quite rapidly. The Haitian army became even more, forceful in in maintaining the, you know, the intentions and the the commands of the state because the state leader at the time, the president was an army man himself, general Paul Magua. So having that access to the army meant, deepening of the the army as as a threatening force, not necessarily as a as an active violent force, but as a force in which its threat was becoming, very visible. The Haitian economy was doing poorly. You know, often we think about the 19 fifties, as a period of prosperity, but that’s just because we’re projecting, a very blurred and and wrong and sometimes very wrong impression of the United States economy coming out to the war. And some are assuming that anywhere that was tied to the US was economic was also doing well. That’s simply not true.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:27:57]:
Even in the United States itself, there are there are great places and and and examples of deep poverty. But in in Haiti, there was a lot of economic fallout in the 19 fifties. The hurricane had come, hurricane Hazel had come, and that damaged quite a lot. In Haiti, the support for for the hurricane relief, had been squandered by the state. A lot of it had been taken by corrupt political officials. So there was all sorts of of messiness going on, in the in the late fifties. And what Duvalier did was that Duvalier, in a very strange way, began to see that as not just not as maybe negatives for Haiti, but positives for him. He started to see how he could use that as a springboard to his own grab for power.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:28:56]:
Mhmm. And it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s sort of strange, really, because Duvalier’s own personal history didn’t really indicate that trajectory in an obvious way, though it clearly was there, prior to 57. Mhmm. And and and he he then comes to a point where he is willing to broker deals with people that he had previously, shunned or even still publicly didn’t support in order to gain power. So that thirst, that quest, that desire that is unquenchable for for power Mhmm. Becomes such a dominating force of Duvalier’s actions in 1957. And and, ultimately, it leads to him making the sorts of alliances that would help him get into power in in September 57.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:29:49]:
Mhmm.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:29:50]:
And and it it really is a marker. It’s not just Duvalley is coming to power. It’s a whole context in which he came to power is a marker for the ending of that period that I cover in the book because it it is a very different Haiti.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:30:06]:
And it’s interesting you you talk about, you know, the surprise of, how he had changed because, Le Guillaume Duvalier, I was very sympathetic to that young Duvalier and his ideas. I was like, wow. I could this resonates with me. But what he became later on is just just striking. So, the the the conclusion of your book, which really, it it was it kinda blew me away when you talked about how when you walked into, the, you know, when you entered the Hades, Museum of Patheon in Port au Prince, how there was absolutely no nothing for the 30 years of Francois Angel Claude’s reign. Like, there was nothing there. Can you talk about the absence of of of of that that, of the Duvalier, errors and and and and what that meant to you?
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:31:04]:
Well, you know, the absence is a result of unnecessary psychological cleansing after the Duvalier period that Haiti had to go through Deshukasse. They had to go through that period of of of erasing this source of so much oppression and violence and death and destruction and damage. I mean, it’s a damage that, you know, I mean, I could go on to further about the ways in which the Duvalier period really damaged Haiti, and there’s small ways in which we still see today, even though we’re so far away from it. But we still see the cracks because of that. And and and I mean, you know, with such work I’ve done in in Haiti, particularly, I did some work in Haiti after the earthquake in 2010, and there are elements that I had noticed in how certain civil areas of of Haitian life function
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:32:07]:
Mhmm.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:32:07]:
That that because of my close study of the pre Duvalier years, I knew that they are not they they they they don’t function even as well as they did in the pre Duvalier years. And it is I read that and read that as an indication of this what I mean by this damage. But I won’t go into that. Mhmm. What I will what I will say is that the the psychological cleansing, if you will, or attempt to cleanse psychologically because again, as I said, a lot of it lingered All that period of the after 86 coming down was necessary, and a consequence of it, you know, was a removal of the names and the memory and all of these things that were, symbols that became very oppressive symbols for Haitians. And and in that though is the danger of removing the knowledge of that history. Now the memory is one thing. The knowledge is another thing.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:33:20]:
The knowledge is important because it has to be taught and told. Mhmm. We, Caribbean people, we suffer so much in terms of our history. Slavery, colonialism, natural disaster, political violence. We suffer so much foreign intervention, but we have to know what we have suffered. Even if we have to even if we struggle with how we remember and recall it, that’s natural. These are trauma traumatic things. You know, I I taught for nearly 20 years in at university in Jamaica, and, you know, often my students would say to me, please don’t teach me anymore about slavery.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:33:59]:
It’s too I don’t want to hear about slavery anymore. Right? That is negative to me. That’s not helping me. And I’d have to say to them, I understand where you’re coming from. It’s trauma, but you need to know it because if you don’t know it, you know, your own understanding of how you have come to where you are now in this place, in this time, isn’t complete. Mhmm. I see the same thing in Haiti with this because when, you know, I remember some years ago, even before the 2010 earthquake on a trip to Haiti, a group of of students had asked me to help them study for their back, their history, component to their back. And I was going through Haitian history with them, helping them kinda get some, you know, some some a way of understanding the chronology of patient history.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:34:48]:
By the time we got to the Duvalier period, I was so surprised that the girls in the group were saying to me they wish that there was a Duvalier again in Haitian. And I was stunned. I was like, why would you say that? This is no. But, you know, as long as you never say anything bad about Duvalier, you’d be okay. But they they resented that they could hear stories from parents and grandparents of of a of of a childhood of Port au Prince when they were, you know, more ball, more dance, more more going out and so on that as long as you never say anything about the dictatorship, you could enjoy that. And they said instead, they’re growing up in a port of France with kidnapping and gangs and those sorts of things and, you know, political haitian and and a million political parties and people fighting for the presidency. And I realized that there was a innocence in their statement. And and as as shocked and as appalled and as I was, I had to sort of silence a historian in me and open the ears of, of a listener to kinda find out where these these girls were at, you know.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:35:57]:
And and so then I asked them, what have you learned at school? And they have not learned that at school. They had not learned it. And they had and so that’s how they could get to that point where not knowing it. As I said, it’s a separate name from memory, but not knowing of it Mhmm. Had been part of the damage of Duvalley still operating in the country.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:36:20]:
Mhmm. Mhmm.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:36:21]:
You know? And and that’s the thing that’s important. I mean, that’s why when Jean Claude came back to Haiti, all the people are stunned. Why, you know, how come he’s allowed to go back and live there? And I thought about that night meeting with those girls in in the courtyard of their school one day, you know, who see very differently from from, you know, you and I and and others of a different generation who have approached and come to understand it differently. Mhmm. So so, you know, I think I think that what’s changing now is that there are more spaces like, like, blogs, like very, very active, young Haitians that I’ve had the good fortune of being in touch with who’ve used technology and use sorts of the Internet and and and sort of broader connections with wider groups of people to keep this this knowledge alive. Mhmm. And to and and and it’s not just the knowledge of the bad things and the bad times, but the good things and and the stories of Haitians who have achieved the stories of their history that they should be proud of since 18 0 4, not just up to 18 0 4, but so much that Haiti has done and achieved after independence till now, and Haitians have done and achieved after independence till now, you know, to to to showcase that and to and to have all of that part of the story. But that story of Eurasia, that story of of, you know, what you can deal with and what you can’t.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:37:55]:
Mhmm. It’s a condition that that, you know, a lot of us in the Caribbean, have to do battle with all the time.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:38:04]:
Yeah. If you don’t know what it looks like, how are you gonna know when it comes back?
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:38:09]:
That’s another way to put it. Yeah. Yeah.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:38:12]:
Yeah. I really appreciate your efforts and and, you know, the years years that you put in, you know, to, to to to get this out. I would love to to have access to some of the, interview recordings that that you’ve done, but, I won’t push my luck. The short tail end of this interview, I asked the professor about, his second book, which I definitely hope to have him on, to talk about it with us and where in the story he picks up.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:38:54]:
It actually goes back in time. That book is called Liberty Fraternity Exile. So it go it goes back into the 19th century. You know, I I liked, you know, I used to tease and say that I studied the grandparents of the people I wrote about in in my first book. But, yeah, it it goes back to that period. And and in some senses, I’m tracing the roots of some of these questions, but I’m also looking at that period on its own terms and trying to to to place Haiti as I always attempt to do in my work. And, you know, I hope I’m successful as part of the Caribbean, as part of a Caribbean story.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:39:33]:
Mhmm.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:39:34]:
And and that’s really important to me because I think all of us in the Caribbean, we owe such a humongous debt to Haiti. There’s no question about it that our own sense of who we are, whether we resist or or bristle and and cause and moan about it, but a lot of it really is is rooted in the story of Haiti. And and I wanted to trace how far that was and and how people before us, dealt with that history and that connection that’s what that second book is all about.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:40:05]:
Okay. Cool. You got any final thoughts to me? Because I don’t know if you can top everything you’ve said, all these gems you dropped today.
Dr. Matthew Smith [00:40:14]:
Yeah. Well, I I just wanna say, you know, thanks for all the work you’re doing and and and and also to the listeners who tune in. And, I mean, the fact that they’re tuning in to listen to you and to follow the the stories and the the connections, the discussions with, you know, the people who, you know, it’s quite an interesting range of people from academics to practitioners to everybody. It shows that they want to know more about about Haiti, their country, and and the place it has Haitian and and that great value that it’s that that is is past holds as unlocking our future. And I think that’s really true and important that no matter how dismal and hard, and it is very dismal and very hard, I am well aware that that it seems in the present, there is such a power that you gain from understanding the journey to that to that present from looking at the past and and, you know, just this is a, you know, a a chapel to all the listeners out there who, tune in to hear hear Patrick speaking to me and to everybody else he talks to. You know, keep doing that. Keep reading on your own and, you know, can be for one love.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:41:24]:
Alright. Messi. Messi, brother. Messi, I’m Bill. Okay. Next time. Okay. Bye bye.
Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:41:35]:
I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Please follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook at Negmamo podcast. That’s Maua with a w not an r.
00:00 Radical democracy in Haiti fostered socialist ideas.
04:53 Haitian intellectuals embrace diverse perspectives and engagement.
07:55 Church campaign fought voodoo, failed, and backfired.
10:38 During World War 2, US sought rubber from Haiti.
13:58 Selfish action to fulfill US market demand.
19:45 Haitian politician faces challenges in shifting culture.
23:37 Allegiances formed, opposition grows, presidency overthrown.
26:29 Haitian implosions to 1950s, struggling economy and military.
31:04 Haiti’s absence due to psychological cleansing after Duvalier.
34:48 Surprised by girls wanting Duvalier period back.
36:21 Renewed interest in Haiti’s history and present.
40:14 Thanks for the work and support. Keep listening.
00:00 Young elites in Haiti embraced Marxist ideas leading to a shift in political consciousness and exposure to Racism through limited access to books from the French embassy.
04:53 Haitian intellectuals disrupt society with diverse reading.
07:55 The church’s campaign against voodoo in Haiti backfired.
10:38 During World War 2, US signed deal with Haiti for rubber supply due to blockade from access powers.
13:58 US market demand led to selfish actions, including failed rubber harvests. Backfired for Lesko’s government.
19:45 This person achieved a lot despite challenges and is trying to navigate political and cultural pressures in Haiti.
23:37 Political alliances and downfall of a leader.
26:29 In the 1950s, Haiti faced economic and political challenges, with the army gaining influence and the economy struggling despite perceptions of global prosperity.
31:04 Haiti’s struggle post-Duvalier brought psychological damage with lingering effects.
34:48 Surprised by girls’ nostalgic view of the Duvalier era in Haiti.
36:21 The text discusses Jean Claude’s return to Haiti, changing perspectives, and the use of technology to preserve Haitian history and achievements.
40:14 Acknowledgment of gratitude and encouragement for listeners to continue learning and engaging with Haiti’s history and future.
- Introduction to Dr. Matthew Smith and His Work
- Overview of Dr. Smith’s book “Liberty Fraternity Exile” focused on 19th-century Haitian history.
- The significance of Haiti’s historical narrative within the Caribbean context.
- Acknowledgment and thanks to listeners for their interest in Haitian history.
- Challenges of Haitian Political Culture and Power Structures
- Discussing the constraints facing statesman Estimate and his presidency.
- The United States’ influence over Haiti during Estimate’s tenure.
- The interplay between Haitian politics and predetermined power dynamics.
- Estimate’s Presidency and Subsequent Overthrow
- Friction with the Haitian army and intent to prolong his rule.
- Conditions that led to Estimate’s downfall.
- Duvalier’s Ascent to Power
- The chaotic state of Haiti in 1956 as a backdrop.
- Economic struggles and natural disasters contributing to unrest.
- How Duvalier exploited these conditions to establish his regime in 1957.
- Importance of Historical Memory and Artifacts in Haiti
- Absence and significance of Duvalier era artifacts in the Museum of Patheon.
- Reflections on Haiti’s attempt to reconcile with its past.
- The consequences of erasing oppressive historical symbols.
- Future Interviews and the Continuation of Scholarship
- Upcoming discussion on Dr. Smith’s second book.
- President LESCO’s Challenges and Policies
- Controversial support of the Catholic Church.
- The rubber planting initiative Shaddah and its fallout.
- The Rise of Radicalism During the Post-War Era
- Introduction of radical democracy and socialist ideas.
- The emergence of Marxism influence in Haiti.
- Voices that shaped this radical period, such as Daniel Finole.
- Intellectual Engagement and Ethnographic Studies
- Activities of intellectuals like Jacques Coume, Max Manigat, and Jean Christmass.
- Contributions of Duvalier and Lorraine Madonie in ethnographic research.
- Pushback Against Radical Movements
- Resistance from the social elite, the Catholic Church, and the urban bourgeoisie.
- Anti-superstition campaign against voodoo practices.
- The political repercussions of Lisco’s strategies and their outcomes.
Haitian Political Consciousness and the Rise of Radicalism: “And that radical democracy when mixed with the type of political consciousness that had been growing and widening among, radical elites in Haiti from the thirties created the an opportunity for this coalescence of ideas, socialist ideas, communist Marxist ideas, which had previously been seen almost entirely as an elite, you know, people with privilege who could think, who could have the opportunity to think these ways and have that level of exposure Toussaint French Marxism, which some of them did, that had now become, an option that young people at the university were now engaged with and discussing and became aware of.”
— Dr. Matthew Smith [00:00:42 → 00:02:36]
Emergence of Intellectual Thought in Haitian History: “I mean, to me, this is a really exciting period in Haitian history. Absolutely fascinating because you have you have on the one hand people like Jacques Coume, Max, Max, these very well known left of center radical intellectuals who are, you know, they’re reading about poetry and art the same time they’re reading Marx and Engels, and the same time they’re reading about voodoo, and the same time they’re they’re trying to understand their country by going into the countryside and and listening and looking and absorbing.”
— Dr. Matthew Smith [00:05:18 → 00:05:56]
Church’s Anti-Voodoo Campaign in Haiti: “This was a campaign that was launched by the church, and was one of several a series of of of different levels of success of campaigns to try and fight against voodoo, which was seen as retrograde and anti modern and and all of those things.”
— Dr. Matthew Smith [00:07:56 → 00:08:13]
The Significance of Haitian Rubber During WWII: “So the United States needed to find an alternative supplier for the rubber that’s used in boots, used in tanks, used in so much aspects of of war fighting on the front line.”
— Dr. Matthew Smith [00:10:56 → 00:11:08]
The Rise of Political Leadership in Haiti: “he’s a statesman who has to somehow find a way of breaking that political culture that had been part of his own Haitian, that that had had been a source of his creation as a politician, and also listening to the will of a very varied group of people who had their own ideas and their own energy and forces and aspirations for what Haiti could be.”
— Dr. Matthew Smith [00:20:06 → 00:20:30]
Political Alliances and Downfall: “But behind, when he did that, they started to sharpen their knives and form allegiances with groups that they wouldn’t have before. Whether it’s the Catholic church, the army, Trujillo, whoever it was, the United States, to try and undermine him so that he could get out.”
— Dr. Matthew Smith [00:23:37 → 00:23:53]
The Haitian Army’s Intimidation in the 1950s: “The Haitian army became even more, forceful in maintaining the, you know, the intentions and the commands of the state because the state leader at the time, the president was an army man himself, general Paul Magua. So having that access to the army meant, deepening of the army as as a threatening force, not necessarily as an active violent force, but as a force in which its threat was becoming, very visible.”
— Dr. Matthew Smith [00:27:05 → 00:27:17]
Nostalgia for the Duvalier Era in Haiti: “But they they resented that they could hear stories from parents and grandparents of of a of of a childhood of Port au Prince when they were, you know, more ball, more dance, more more going out and so on that as long as you never say anything about the dictatorship, you could enjoy that.”
— Dr. Matthew Smith [00:35:05 → 00:35:24]
The Evolution of Haitian Narratives: “So, you know, I think that what’s changing now is that there are more spaces like, like, blogs, like very, very active, young Haitians that I’ve had the good fortune of being in touch with who’ve used technology and use sorts of the Internet and and and sort of broader connections with wider groups of people to keep this this knowledge alive.”
— Dr. Matthew Smith [00:36:21 → 00:37:55]
The Importance of Understanding History: “there is such a power that you gain from understanding the journey to that to that present from looking at the past”
— Dr. Matthew Smith [00:40:58 → 00:41:05]
Development of Radicalism in Haitian History: “his era was critical for the development of radicalism in Haitian”
— Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:00:13 → 00:00:18]
Cultural Shifts in History: “And one of the pushbacks, came from the Catholic church and the urban bourgeoisie. Right? Can you talk about the anti superstition campaign?”
— Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:07:45 → 00:07:54]
Iskim’s Departure: “So now, he’s gone. Iskim.”
— Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:15:12 → 00:15:17]
Social Reform and Youth Engagement: “they’re the real hope for social reform, let’s say.”
— Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:15:24 → 00:15:27]
Title: The Rise of Duvalier
Quote: “So, I know you you don’t go, you know, too deeply into Duvalier. Can you so he comes in under what circumstances and and and how did he use all the machinations that occurred and the estimate to to come to power?”
— Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:25:13 → 00:25:33]
Historical Erasure in Haiti: “the conclusion of your book, which really, it it was it kinda blew me away when you talked about how when you walked into, the, you know, when you entered the Hades, Museum of Patheon in Port au Prince, how there was absolutely no nothing for the 30 years of Francois Angel Claude’s reign. Like, there was nothing there.”
— Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:30:27 → 00:30:51]
The Value of Persistence in Research: “Yeah. I really appreciate your efforts and and, you know, the years years that you put in, you know, to, to to to get this out.”
— Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:38:12 → 00:38:22]
Final Thoughts: “Okay. Cool. You got any final thoughts to me? Because I don’t know if you can top everything you’ve said, all these gems you dropped today.”
— Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:40:05 → 00:40:13]
Social Media Handles Correction: “That’s Maua with a w not an r.”
— Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:41:50 → 00:41:53]
- Can you outline the key factors that contributed to the rise of radicalism in Haiti between 1941 and 1957, as discussed in the episode?
- How did President Élie Lescot’s support of the Catholic Church and the rubber planting initiative impact the political climate and contribute to his unpopularity?
- What role did the United States play in influencing Haitian politics and economic policies during Élie Lescot’s presidency?
- In what ways did the ascent of François Duvalier to power in 1957 mark the end of the era covered in Dr. Smith’s book “Liberty Fraternity Exile”?
- Why is it important to retain and study the history of traumatic events, such as the Duvalier era and slavery in the Caribbean, according to Dr. Matthew Smith?
- Discuss the implications of the absence of Duvalier era artifacts at the Museum of Patheon in Port-au-Prince. How does this reflect on the methods of psychological recovery after the Duvalier period?
- What challenges did the Haitian political culture present to statesmen like Estimé when trying to enact change and listen to the will of the diverse people of Haiti?
- How did the influence of Marxism and interpretations of racism during Lescot’s presidency contribute to the socio-political movements among Haitian intellectuals?
- Reflect on the pushback from the social elite, the Catholic church, and the urban bourgeoisie against the rising socialist and communist movements. How did the anti-superstition campaign targeting voodoo exemplify this resistance?
- What lessons can modern-day political leaders in Haiti learn from the historical challenges faced by presidents like Lescot and Estimé regarding balancing political strategies and the diverse interests of their constituencies?
