Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:00:00]:

Here’s what you wrote. Quote, few human expressions are as powerful or compelling as resistance and criticism delivered through song, unquote. Is is it because it’s compelling necessarily mean that it’s actionable. So here’s another quote from your book. You you quoted this, a Trinidadian theorist, because you are aching, Who you said observed that masking and mimicry mimicry behaviors performed in the carnival context often constitute, quote, Instances of lower frequency politics that do not always aim to achieve social upheaval, but seek to gain and maintain visible representation within the region’s democracies, unquote. So do some music lovers overstate the case for the transformative power of music to singularly change things politically? Is music more affirmative, more aspirational in the sense that it gives voice to the disenfranchised? And, like, let’s take Haiti, for example. It affirms, to be sure, but it’s not always this sort of kinetic catalyst. It doesn’t directly cause things to change politically, does it?

Rebecca Dirksen [00:01:15]:

Yeah. I I I think this is a really, A very hopeful series of questions to ask. I think you’re absolutely right in saying that, there is an overstatement, frequently of the the power of music. And, you know, that tends to be very aspirational, and it tends to, You know, really find romance in this notion of, revolution, which obviously is tied to Haiti as a nation in very profound ways. Right? And still, there’s something about, the kinetic energy It is transmitted through, through music, through performance, through, that sonic resonance that allows people to connect. Now in terms of overthrowing governments, in terms of, you know, changing political course, in terms of, finding true liberation. Well, if music were really that powerful, I think we’d all around the world be in a much better position than we find ourselves in today, where, you know, we we would maybe have this utopian view on freedom for everyone and, you know, respect for everyone’s human rights. And that clearly hasn’t happened yet.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:02:30]:

Still, I think in Haiti in particular, it’s it’s very important to to recognize the Ties to that history of revolution, that history of, working toward freedom, and how that has Repeatedly over generations, over centuries, been channeled through, music as a communicative tool, as a means to help to get people, chauffeur, heated up, about certain causes, to help, inform people Of the details of what might be happening in spaces where they maybe have no access. And so, music, I think, becomes, Important as we’re carrying out these conversations, as we’re helping people who, perhaps don’t have, The the possibilities to join, you know, conversations directly in parliament or who maybe are not in a position to, be able to lend their their voice, in civic matters. And so I think it it plays an important role, and yet I I think you’re absolutely right to say, you know, let’s let’s maybe tone things down a bit and say music changes the world. Okay. Sure. But Is is it actually, is it actually bringing us better governments? That that might be a A question we can consider, but I I I agree that there there might be, some overstatements here.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:04:19]:

I wanted to get a sense of the theoretical grounding you brought to this book. This is what you wrote. Quote, we outside scholars would likewise do well to stop relying primarily on non Haitian tools, methodologies, and theories to understand Haiti, which does great violence to both the people and the historical record by dangerously distorting narratives about the country and its citizens, unquote. You’re not saying here, you know, not to use Western methodologies. What you’re saying, I guess, is, why why is it important to get the narrative right, period. Anyway, as as an outsider or insider, you you said earlier you had family members, who are Haitian. So Right. I guess probably the better question is, like, do you feel how do you feel as a scholar Studying Haiti, but you also have family members who are Haitian.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:05:22]:

And the different positions, you know, that you occupy here. You know? Can you talk about that? Like, how how are you How are you moving? What is your mobility? And, as as as doctor Schelder, taught me so well. Yeah. Well, as you moved into different places and being aware of your position in them.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:05:44]:

Yeah. You’re you’re absolutely right to to raise that question. I think it’s so Incredibly important to recognize our own positionality, the types of movement, that we find accessible for us as individuals. You know, who I am in the world, really affects, the ways that I am able to interact, In Haiti, with patient colleagues, family, friends, and how I do the scholarship. And yet I remain a US citizen. I am a, white, American woman. I was, born in the rural Midwest. And so all of those things helped to shape, how I approach this perspective, and yet I also do have Haitian family.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:06:31]:

And so It puts me in this position of being kind of in between these spaces, you know, having lived, for, You know, a great deal of my adult life, but between Haiti and the US and, Europe. So I’ve been moving between these spaces And really finding a constant for, my life has has in fact been, you know, Haiti is a a centralizing focus. And yet I still have a great responsibility to recognize the extraordinary privileges that I have due to my identity, due to, you You know, the types of access I’ve had to education and, you know, support and, other structures that are not, as apparent for, You know, many of my, colleagues or family members, and so I wanna be extremely aware of all of that. Now when I said that we, White scholars would do well to stop relying primarily on non Haitian tools and methodologies and theories to understand Haiti. But what I’m referencing here Is in fact a, comment that, Franca Thien, the Haitian poet and playwright, musician, Made that I really struck me as being very, very important. And this was specifically geared toward Haitian readers, toward Haitian intellectuals specifically, where he was effectively calling them out for, utilizing the tools or methodologies of others and finding that That is not really helping, to understand Haitian circumstances. You know? So kind of importing this this external logic, For him, it becomes faulty and illogical. And so it was a critique that he was raising about, Haitian intellectuals in particular, and their their Maybe the the the pretty typical, reflex to, look to the outside to try to understand what was happening within Haiti.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:08:28]:

And that then, I think, in, he was saying was was, you know, being, in fact, a violent act and that it was Having the tendency to classify Haitians as being somehow, abnormal, to use his his word, or, somehow, quote, unquote, backward. You know? So then we get into these highly racialized stereotypes, and I’m responding similarly Yes. Absolutely. Where do we put our focus? So my goal with this this book and all of my research is really to prioritize Grounded theory that that, the conversations, the documents, the, the, You know, the articulated religious or, philosophical beliefs and practices, the the local understandings The people are raising locally in Haiti to say this is what matters to us and saying that that is really where our focus, our emphasis needs to be. And so bringing those voices more centrally, to the fore as we’re having these conversations, I think, is really essential. That then also, I think, applies to, citational practices, you know, acknowledging the wealth of work that has, taken place, That has been led by Haitian colleagues, and also by citizen scholars. So I don’t I don’t believe that our sense of scholarship is something that should be restricted to, academic spaces like universities. In other words, that it’s only, university professors who have a say in these conversations.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:10:03]:

You know? I really trust that people have smart things to say about their own experiences and interpretations of the world, and it’s very beneficial for us to hear those. So, I I suppose my my goal here then is to listen really, really well to how people are describing their circumstances And try to understand the many, many different perspectives that are coming through as a result of that. At the same time, I’m not saying that There there may very well be certain, western, theories and ideas that are very applicable. I don’t think it’s particularly helpful for us to say that Haiti is somehow separate as though there’s a the west and the rest, binary that we can somehow, separate out, that I think, becomes Much too rigid, especially when we consider, the deep entanglements of the world, the various mobilities, that people have, in the engagement that, many people want to commit to in terms of, you know, broadening academic thought. So and, you know, just thought and experience in general beyond, the academy as well. So I suppose it’s more about Focusing on that process of, decoloniality, recognizing that there is this there there is an impossibility of fully separating, these spaces to be you know, for example, the west and the and the rest, and and saying that, you know, if we if we do that, we We risk somehow saying that Haiti is so distant and illegible that, those of us who are, sitting outside of the boundaries of Haiti are somehow unable to to, look at Haiti, consider Haiti with regard and and recognition for the ways that we ourselves, those of us on the outside, are in fact deeply implicated In the ways, that life is being lived in Haiti as well. And I think that goes for any space around the world where we are all so much more intertwined than we believe ourselves, maybe to be. And so I wanted to allow that space for conversation back and forth and to recognize that, You know, people are really interested in conversing.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:12:22]:

So let’s have those conversations, and yet let’s still prioritize and bring to the fore The conversations that are happening on the ground in Haiti that are most relevant as people are experiencing, to day to day.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:12:36]:

What is what’s the difference between polyrhythms and polyphony?

Rebecca Dirksen [00:12:40]:

Right. So polyrhythm is Effectively, the simultaneous use of 2 or more rhythms that, we might not Perceive as being directly related to one another. So it becomes a layering of different ways of breaking up A timeline. Right? A a a a pulse. Right? And those layers then, can become kind of the basis of Piece of music, for example, or one really easy example would be measuring something 2 against 3.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:13:15]:

Mhmm.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:13:15]:

And so so if, for example, if we have a pulse that sounds, pretty consistent, like Are you able to hear that on your end?

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:13:24]:

Yes. Uh-huh.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:13:26]:

Okay. So if then we had we were going to divide that pulse into 2, That would not be a polyrhythm, given the mathematical relationship between the 2. But then Then we could say, okay. Let’s take that same pulse and divide, that into 3. Alright. So, again, There’s a relationship between that division of 3 and that pulse. But what happens if we were to, combine that 2 against 3. And, again, this is just a very, very simple example of polyrhythm, but, might give you an idea.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:14:09]:

So, we would have something like and so there you have what would be considered a polyrhythm. Now we know that mathematically those are in fact related, but it’s not an instant, thing that people would perceive. There might be, a more complex layer of different rhythms perceived there. Right? So that would be considered a polyrhythm. Alright. And, obviously, when when working with Haitian rhythms, these polyrhythms are vastly more complex than what I’ve as provided here, but it gives you a general sense of what’s happening. Now, polyphony is dealing with musical texture. You can imagine, you know, a a melody that you you know know very, very well.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:14:58]:

For example, let’s say, Mary Had A Little Lamb and then maybe juxtapose that with, Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, you play those both at once, and then that would be a very intriguing version of polyphony That may or may not sound, very good, but it’ll give you the idea of, what it means to have those, different lines of musical texture playing at the same time.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:15:21]:

Regarding the Haitian drum. Mhmm. He said this, quote, contrary to popular belief, Haitian tambour drums are not merely about their polyrhythms. They are equally about melody, harmony, and, ultimately, polyphony. That’s the complexity you were talking about. Right?

Rebecca Dirksen [00:15:44]:

Yeah. Absolutely. So when we think about drums, we often tend to get stuck thinking only about rhythm. Like, oh, you know, the drums are you know, the rhythm section, they, you know, They provide the pulse, you know, as though that’s the only thing they’re doing. And yet, I encourage thinking about this in a much more multidimensional way, As I was talking about multidimensional listening previously. And one really, really good argument for this comes from, the master drummer Frisner, Augustin. Some years ago, I was having a a conversation with Lois Wilkin, who is a scholar, based in New York, Who’s worked with Latour Acanal for, I don’t know, decades, since the early eighties. And she also is a scholars that has worked very, very closely with Frisner Augustin.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:16:32]:

And when I learned that, Frisner would refer to his drum as his piano, That that’s something that really tickled me as a pianist myself, and it led me to think a lot more about what he was encouraging his Students to listen for. Right? So it’s not merely about setting up those rhythms, but it’s about, you know, being able to access the different timbres or the different, sonic qualities that the drum is able to produce and to hone that as something that we value just as much as the rhythms that we’re playing. Right? So the tone that you draw out of the drum really, really matters. And the ways that you shape your hand or, use your body to respond bond to that that drum head, that membrane are crucial to the way that that sound is being delivered to listeners. Right? And so I was intrigued by that whole challenge to this rigid idea of thinking of drums are rhythm. Right? And, found that very, very important for, developing our sense of listening more broadly and the ways that we care about sound.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:17:39]:

One of the dedications is to, Bulo Valcourt and Manoj Sharma, who you said, quote, both modeled a spirit of when the world gives us cause to become. And Broad Stokes, why the dedication to them?

Rebecca Dirksen [00:17:59]:

Well, I’ve learned a lot from both of them. I had the opportunity to spend a good amount of time with both and had extended conversations and interviews that Dove deeply into the philosophical, nature of, what life is in general, what life is in Haiti, you know, political Experiences, challenges. And I’ve found also through their music a lot of, You know, life in Haiti, but also life well beyond. Remembering back to my very earliest days in Haiti, Manu Shah Mayen’s, Capital America and, Organizational, ended up being some of my very favorite songs, for, you know, a number of years that really guided my education. They were incredibly memorable in that they were among the, first Musical tracks that I encountered from Haiti, they they happen to resonate. Their meaning happened to resonate with the time of inquiry that I was having, you know, a period of self reflection just as I was finishing up a degree in piano performance, which for me was an excellent experience. You know? I I I really Enjoyed my time at this music conservatory, and yet through the process of going through that degree, I began strongly questioning the limitations of the canonical repertoire, that is entailed in a, classical music performance career. And, recognizing that there’s this vastness of, different music, Not only within the classical music, realm, but also well beyond.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:19:37]:

And so as I was having this, period of questioning about where I wanted to go next with life. I also had the opportunity to be in Haiti listening to all this other music. And At the same time, I was questioning kind of canonical, repertoires, and the political implications of being involved in that. I was also hearing from Manu Shah Main’s lyrics, this critique of, the colonial regimes that have shaped history, the global organizations that, as he said, are not for us, that are ostensibly there to provide aid and yet really have, you know, through structural adjustments and all sorts of other complexities, added layers of difficulty for, the people who have Had their lives, shaped by them. And so these became parallel inquiries as I was effectively going through this earlier phase of figuring out, okay, so what does mean to be in relation with other people who have different types of experiences.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:20:41]:

Mhmm.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:20:41]:

So very memorable musically for me. And then Bulo Valcour is somebody who I came to know a couple years after that, and really started Enjoying my time just just with him, like, spending time, you know, listening to his performances live and, That over time evolved into the opportunity to, produce, together with filmmaker Kendi Berlis, his only solo Album, before his passing. Now as you know, Bulleu Valcour is, you know, a a a prodigious musician. Somebody who has really profoundly shaped the course of the Haitian music industry. He’s mentored many, many young musicians. He’s been involved in numerous, high profile music ensembles, and he has, really been dedicated to, jazz and, you know, just really cultivating a love for that within, within Haiti. And so, together, Efrainie Luce and I were able to produce, this album, called, that we felt, you know, it was really kind of a statement of, a masterpiece, in fact. I mean, I think there’s some some extremely important recordings on there We were able to, guide through the process of getting into the studio through years of work together and, finally, releasing into the world, which, we we’re all, I think, very happy about.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:22:21]:

But Boulud brought with him kind of this playfulness, this wisdom, this humor. He was a fountain of creativity. And I think that just Seeing how he worked as an artist and how he approached, life in general was really Formational for me as well as an individual. Now both Manu Shah Main and and Bulova Al Khor, I think, were really complex and complicated individuals, You know, who lived and loved really large and who wrestled deeply with these, critical issues that impact society and families and people, and that comes through really clearly in their music. And so I found that, You know, both of their, I found both of them to be a a really important source of guidance for me over many years of my involvement in Haiti. Well, I can tell you I can tell you my very favorite one of this is,

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:23:22]:

Uh-huh.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:23:24]:

That’s my favorite. And it’s kind of a less. It is very upbeat. And, of course, the message, you know, as soon as the drum beats, I have to be there.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:23:31]:

So what is it about that track?

Rebecca Dirksen [00:23:33]:

Well, I think from the very first time that I heard it, it’s it’s so incredibly upbeat. It’s one of those things where you hear it and you can’t help but move. You can’t help but, get up and dance. But I think the meaning behind it, you know, as soon as the drum beats, I have to be there. You know, that that necessity of participating somehow, that, the way that the drum compels or the rhythm of the drum compels participation, is so, enticing, I think, to me. And it it it fits so incredibly well with this This notion of carnival being, in fact, a very, very important, social, and political, act that people create Together. Mhmm. And so, and I just love the music.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:24:23]:

It’s it’s something that I’ve I’ve always, turned to when you know, if I’m Feeling a little bit low or something? I wanna go and listen to something upbeat. This is something that I love to turn on as it’s it’s just a really exquisite and exuberant way of, you know, talking about, keeping those connections going.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:30:10]:

That’s the Creole version of her book. After the dance, the drums are heavy, carnival politics and musical engagement in Haiti.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:30:23]:

This idea of, you know, gathering together for a dance, a celebration, a a a photo ceremony, some sort of gathering Right. And enjoying oneself, kind of being caught up in the moment, kind of, enjoying the presence of others.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:30:37]:

Mhmm.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:30:38]:

And then afterwards, At this moment of exhaustion, you know, what do we do after that period of gathering together and getting, you know, all worked up and all excited? What do we do when we’ve depleted that energy? You know? It it can be, you know, kind of a difficult recovery. But I think in a more Aforical way, this idea of, you know, putting great effort into a a a collective activity, you know, whether it’s a protest movement, whether it’s a revolution, for example. You know, the aftermath of that is what really counts. It’s the steps that you take after gathering, after after convening, after deciding on all these grand and glorious ideas. You have to put them into practice. You have to, follow through. And that follow through comes at a period of, you know, often exhaustion. And so how how do you press Through that.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:31:32]:

So it feels like, to me, this is a really profound, expression of what it means to be human.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:31:40]:

So why did you write this book?

Rebecca Dirksen [00:31:42]:

Yes. Well, I had this very particular experience of living firsthand immediately after, the 2010 earthquake that led me to realize how resonant, some of these Experiences were with what we were seeing, beyond the boundaries of Haiti and how, in fact, we are deeply intertwined regardless of, geopolitical, both very curious. It’s a this is, Haiti is a place that I have known, I think, very well given that I’ve been, living off and on in the country since 2003. And so I’ve had kind of both the perspective of before the 2010 quake and after the 2010 earthquake. But that particular year of, 2010 through 2011 Just had an intensity to it that I think is really worth paying good attention to. Right. So this is a period that not only are we dealing with kind of the the moment of figuring out what happens, in Reconstruction, what happens, as we bring A nation back to life as we help people to navigate these very, very difficult circumstances. Were facing the introduction, for example, of cholera and the horrendous effects that that brought and the threats to life.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:33:03]:

We also saw this very unusual, I think, return of a a political election Michael, you know, what happens after, president Reyna, Rene Preval steps down? And How do we transition into the next phase of governance at a moment where the nation is so incredibly delicate? And what happened during that Election cycle in particular that made it unusual, and unique for people to follow along. How were people getting tied up in the, energies that were being projected by all of the different actors involved. And what in fact does it mean for A a musician, an extremely prominent musician who declared himself the president of Compa decades prior To suddenly become the president of the country. And so I you know, I’m living this together with all of my friends, my family, my colleagues, literally seeing what was happening in the streets, how people were protesting, how people were, singing, how people were Responding to, the particularities of the situation. And all of this was being, it was happening within a context of An influx of, international relief efforts. So the the challenges with, all of a sudden, these many, many NGOs and Charities and, you know, volunteer tourism and, you know, just the glut of, new people being introduced into this system Putting, a great deal of stress on these resources.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:34:41]:

Mhmm.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:34:42]:

And, you know, I think some of your previous Guests have really criticized this very effectively. For example, I was just listening, to Mimi Sheller’s, conversation with you where she, I think, directly points this. You know? What are the problems of bringing in, you know, a whole bunch of people into the system, ostensibly to solve the problems when, In fact, maybe there may be more, challenges with adding to this. So we have all this stuff happening at the same exact time, And, then we have a a president, or somebody becoming president who had previously been, you know, an entertainer, somebody who is, You know, clearly, a consummate musician, somebody who who is had been extremely Well loved by the public, for his many performances. Somebody who knows a great deal about music business and carnival. And So what happens when that is the sort of, individual who is elevated to a position of, leadership, of power To navigate this extremely difficult moment. So and this was happening also just Slightly before, we were seeing similar stories play out elsewhere in the world. And, you know, for me as a US citizen, I was also seeing the rise of an entertainer who had no, political formation, who had no formal education to help lead a nation, step into a presidency and, over, you know, an alternative candidate who, had a great deal of Training a great deal of education and experience and decades of involvement in leadership and who was also a woman.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:36:24]:

So it it became this very, resonant space for me to try to wrestle not only with what I was experiencing firsthand alongside friends and family, but also What I was experiencing as a US citizen and trying to reconcile what it meant for me as a, civic participant, as a voter in my own, country, you know, and what what’s going on between these 2 different spaces? Places where citizenship and voting and political involvement is really, really

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:36:55]:

Right. Mhmm.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:36:55]:

So so that that’s really why I think it became important to document, you know, as close to real time As it as it gets in academia, what was happening on the ground in Haiti during this very crucial moment in history, and then contextualize that within a broader A broader scope of of where some of these, trajectories have been coming from, what histories have played into making It’s a possibility. And so I think it’s it’s been very important for me now as I look beyond that particular immediate Aftermath of the earthquake to realize, you know, that documentation of, you know, 6 or so years of, of a presidential administration has been really, really important, I think, to remembering what it is that, people experience together And the many different interpretations of, the many challenges that came up during that

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:38:07]:

So, you touched on on on carnival. You you say in the book that it’s not a unique event or phenomenon, to Haiti.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:38:18]:

So, you know, we could go back to, like, the ancient Roman festival of Saturnalia, for example. Or, you know, today, we might More commonly called to minds like, samba in Brazil or, Steelpan Panorama in Trinidad. We might even venture into More sacred, festivities like Holi in India, for example. And so there’s just this expansiveness of Considering festivities and, you know, what it means to be, perhaps out together in public spaces, possibly in the streets together, possibly In a processional formation, possibly, dressed up, you know, involving music, musical performance, Involving, very likely, political commentary as well, satire, you know, becomes a Space where people come together to say lots and lots of different things, sometimes contradictory, sometimes parallel in harmony. And all this gets kind of Mixed together, mashed together into a very dynamic and, changing space. Mhmm. So, yes, not Particular to Haiti, but very, very important to Haiti as perhaps the musical festival that receives the greatest amount of funding, allotted to it during, any given year. You know, while while, outside of Haiti, we might think, you know, to other, places within the Caribbean as being a little bit more, active with Carnival and, Carnival tourism.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:39:50]:

I argue that in fact, Carnival is a very significant moment within the calendar year For a Haitian culture, and yet it is also something that is much more complicated than just the calendar year, which I think we’ll get into momentarily.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:40:06]:

So you, So when is when is the carnival, the ones of significant in Haiti? Also talk a little bit about, Fetet I guess you call you called it the pre canal pre canal event.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:40:21]:

Well, that that becomes a starting point, so to Speak. But, yes, as I was saying, it’s it’s very difficult to, stick to the calendar and to see Carnaval as this firmly bounded event. Speaking, when we talk about carnival, we’re typically thinking about the, 3 days prior to Lent, leading up To Ash Wednesday as a period where, you know, we might see the floats in the streets and the processionals and, You know, large crowds coming out to enjoy some of the most popular bands in the Haitian music industry. And yet that is not the extent of kind of all those 3 days of, You know, big name bands and and, you know, commercialism and, you know, lots of involvement of, You know, lots of different actors. We also see, however, a period of pre kanavale that can be quite extended, and it really starts Effectively but effectively, starting the 1st Sunday after January 6th, or, the 3 kings day fetula. That’s when pre carnival Typically, we’ll start. And what we see there is, you know, almost like these these block parties, these, local bands that will come together to rehearse. You know, sometimes at at certain intersections or or certain key locations within town, and, the effects of that are very, very frequently.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:41:42]:

You’ll see, like, Sound systems in the streets where you’ll see, you know, Rara bands or or Bana Piede foot bands coming together, to practice their repertoire, Kind of hone it and and help everybody to come to know the the lyrics for the year. And that has the effect I’ve seen in Port au Prince of really stocking up the traffic For the hours on each Sunday when those festivities are taking place. So we can’t really confine kind of out to just those 3 days because we have to look before to that period, of, you know, starting to get people heated up and excited about the moments. And then afterwards, we would look toward Twined. That’s a period that really peaks coming into Easter, and it’s something that we see just a little bit more in the rural, areas of the country, those that I’ve participated in have been, in the Liaoning region and also especially in the Artibonite Where that goes into much greater detail than than what we can probably get into at this moment. But it’s effectively kind of it’s not an extension of carnival, but it is Definitely, an intertwined, practice that delves into sacred spaces as well that I think is really important. But then there’s beyond the the challenges of these periods of events, interrelated events, if we want to call them that, We then have to consider the ways that carnival gets played in the media, for example. The ways that, musicians, will put out their carnival tracks for the year.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:43:20]:

Very frequently, you’ll see them starting to appear in November or December, prior to that February or March of Carnaval. And you get these music videos that just start to circulate on social media, and people start to get excited about, what that the conversation cycle is going to be in that particular year. And so you have that expanding. But then you also have the Conversations in the press that start to talk about political activities in terms of carnival as well. So, one of the elections was referred to as an election. And so a carnival election, or you’ll see, like, Terms like bamboosh that are associated with political events as well. And these are these are this is terminology that appears in the press And is, used to perhaps critique, perhaps, to characterize the types of, interactions, people are perceiving within political spaces as well the activities of elected politicians and would be politicians that are getting really tangled up in In the vibrancy of different creative ways of interacting with others. And so confining carnival to Any given thing becomes extraordinarily complicated very, very quickly.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:44:40]:

And in fact, maybe that’s part of the appeal of it.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:44:42]:

Is is it formless, Or does it have a certain shape to it? Or, or or what? Or does does it is it like kinda like water? It just assumes the shape of whatever container that it’s in. That’s kinda the sense that I got

Rebecca Dirksen [00:44:58]:

Oh, I love that.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:44:59]:

From your book.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:45:01]:

I I love that analogy. I mean, So if if we were together, you know, at Carnival, we would Certainly recognize it, and yet it is something that I think is described differently by every participant. And So that’s where I think it it does take on the forms that it needs to in response to whatever is going on. So various, various ensembles, bands that I’ve discussed in this book have used carnival spaces In order to advance conversations that they feel that they feel are very important, to them, to work through various this event are probably going to vary from the next band. And so it yes. I I agree that it becomes, really difficult to Pinned down an exact definition. Maybe the onus is on all of us who are trying to regard carnival as Something that can be described to say, you know what? Let’s allow it the space to expand. Let’s allow it the space to become what it needs To be, whether it is this perception of a liberatory, event, whether it’s this place where, serious Conversations can take place whether it is this this moment where people can just come and gather and have fun and kind of release some pent up energy Or whether it’s a a space for healing, healing together after going through some very, very difficult, events.

Rebecca Dirksen [00:46:34]:

So I think it’s kind of all of that wrapped together, And we maybe do a disservice to, carnival, by trying to pick that apart and say, no. We’re gonna confine it to this particular idea of what carnival should be.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:46:49]:

In terms of your personal experience at this carnival, what oh, wait. You talked earlier about liminal spaces. What was your experience like, and how did you maintain sort of that balance between participant and observer? Because, I mean, you actually there Right. Working. So, yeah, how did you how did you manage

Rebecca Dirksen [00:47:12]:

Well, carnival is is something that, becomes, I I think, a little bit difficult for me to study as somebody who, you know, is a little bit more on the shyer side, And and maybe these, you know, these big crowds of people kind of make me confront that part of, myself as a scholar, that part of myself as, an individual that finds this to be rather overwhelming and overstimulating. I have, been to many carnival And have been right there, packed within the crowd, you know, really enjoying the music as as, you know, a fan of of these, bands that are participating and, you know, just getting caught up in the energy and excitement, and yet also taking the time to kind of reflect on the The, types of, interactions people are having in front of me and with me, simultaneously. So my role has been to try to very carefully observe and document and listen to how people are describing their experiences, And yet still kind of balance that with the the wave of just kind of riding that energy, as well as I can. But, for me as a scholar, I think it’s it’s it’s been, Both immensely enriching as I’ve had to confront certain things about my own personality in the ways that I am in the world. You know, how those kind of lie contrary to what Carnaval can often be at its its essence in terms of this this excited energy and the press of the crowds and And everything. So participation, yes. And also yet remaining, not distant per se, but just, very cognizant Of the experience of being within the space.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:48:51]:

I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Please follow us On Twitter and Facebook at Negmawo podcast. That’s Mahon with a w, not an