Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:00:16]:

Well, hello, professor. Hey. Hello. Hello, Patrick. Hello.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:00:21]:

Alright. Welcome.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:00:23]:

Good. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:00:26]:

So today, we are going to discuss your book, diplomacy and black and white, John Adams to send you and the Atlantic World Alliance. It’s, it’s nice to finally have you on. Life intrudes, doesn’t it?

Ronald Johnson [00:00:44]:

Line does intrude. And I wish we could get around that, but it doesn’t. But I’m just so thrilled, at your interest. I’ve been looking forward to having this conversation Oh, wow.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:00:54]:

Okay. That’s cool. So, let’s start with March 4th 17/97, Adams assumes power as the 2nd US president. 2 months later, May 2, 17/97 to assume the leadership of the Saint Germain Colony. So domestically, what’s going on at home for each of these men? Let’s, let’s start with John Adams, political risks, And then we can go on to Louverture’s military risks in Saint Domingue.

Ronald Johnson [00:01:27]:

Excellent. No. And that’s a great I think that’s a wonderful place to start in talking about these 2 men Together. I mean, in domestically, in the United States, you know, in March of 17/97, John Adams is stepping into some very big choose. He is following George Washington, who really was a man among men during his own time, And he is coming in as much less popular than Washington and is trying to figure out how he is going to distinguish himself after being in the shadow. He had been George Washington’s vice president for 8 years and had really been in the shadows and had really had very little engagement with the administration. And he’s also assuming the presidency at a time When the country, the United States, is beginning to not split militarily, but split intellectually Over the issue of slavery with northern states really beginning to say, we wanna try to find ways to live without slavery or at least not having slavery in our own boundaries, and the southern states have really doubled down on we are not gonna get rid of slavery, And we’re gonna increase the laws that make it harder to free enslaved people. That’s what that’s what John Adams is facing when he walked in to the presidency in Saint Domingue as, Tushal Louverture is being installed as the general in chief of all armed forces of the military And then the governor general, 2 months later, he is facing a situation of how do I govern A colony that, until 4 years ago, the vast majority of the population had been enslaved with an incredible mortality rate.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:03:27]:

How do I another question that he has to ask. How do I govern Generals who are all just as ambitious as I am, who are all just as capable as I am, And how do I maintain this environment within Saint Domingue while not alienating people across the Atlantic world. How do I look beyond Saint Domingue and make people not fear what is going on here in Saint Domingue? Those are some of the problems that both of these men are having to face as they walk into these new positions.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:04:03]:

Okay. So let’s broaden it out now. At the same time, the Atlantic world is in the throes of revolutions. So what’s going on internationally Within the context of of of what these men, have to fix face, you know, domestically. What attempt is for them and their risks internationally?

Ronald Johnson [00:04:24]:

Both for both men, both men have to contend primarily one of the biggest issue that both men have to to deal with is the conflicts the ongoing conflicts between Britain and France. Right? Neither one of these, Territories can operate beyond what is going on between very different, and they’ve been at war with each other Since 17/90 since 17/93, and each of them, Britain and France, kinda want United States in Saint Domingue on their side. And particularly, I’ll I’ll I’ll do them separately here for a second. France is already very upset with the United States because under George Washington, when France and Britain went to war, Washington refused to aid France against Great Britain, Which in some in France’s mind was a breach of the treaty that the United States and France had broken in the 17 seventies, which brought the United States into being. And so France, at some with some legitimacy felt betrayed by the United States and was very upset. And what we see is Adams takes his position. There’s a kinda quasi war. There’s a naval war that is going on between the Britain the American Navy and the French Navy.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:05:45]:

In Saint Domingue, the reason one of the reasons that Toussaint Louverture has has ascended in the way that he had is that He that nation has been fighting with France with France, Spain, Britain, All in the last 5 years before his ascendancy and trying to maneuver which one of these major powers As as these these wars continue across Europe and they expand into the colonies across the Caribbean, where is he gonna calibrate? How is Toussaint Louvie gonna gonna who is he gonna side with at this moment? Because he actually, early on, had started out fighting for the for the for the Spanish Against the French. Then he switched sides early you know, earlier on and went from the Spanish side to the French side. So L’Ouverture has been doing this Atlantic World dance, this political dance, and he he really has a knack. He really had a knack. One of the things that Luther had Over many of his contemporaries was a knack for timing, knowing when to change alliances Based on what was going on in the world. He was really good at that.

Ronald Johnson [00:06:57]:

So you make the distinction early on that, Though both Adams and to Saint Rose from revolutions that in their respective spheres, Adams, however, helped Craft the intellectual scaffolding from which the American Revolution took place, but to say on the other hand, Didn’t help craft the initial revolt in sentiment. He he came after. Why was it important for you to make that distinction between the 2 men?

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:07:23]:

Yeah. I I I I thought it was important for me and for the readers of the book to really understand that Revolutions are dynamic, and and these men, you know, they’re they’re I think it is matter In understanding someone why where they are in the in terms of evolution. For, as you said, with John Adams, like, he was there at the beginning. He laid out a lot of the intellectual foundation upon which the American Revolution, was built. He was the greatest proponent, in the Continental Congress for the declaration of independence. He didn’t write it. Thomas Jefferson wrote it, but he was there, and he championed it in the negotiations. He championed the, Massachusetts, constitution, the rewriting of that that ended slavery in Massachusetts.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:08:17]:

He wrote the model treaty that is going to be, America’s 1st alliance with France. And I and I thought that important because when he takes over as President of the United States, some 20th later, it is all of that knowledge and that intellectual des dexterity that allows him To negotiate with a man unlike any other Americans had interacted with, whether it’s from a, you know, being racially different, From his background being different, the point I wanted to make about laying that laying the groundwork for Adam is he was able to see Tucson Louverture and the The the revolution that was going on at Saint Domingue in a very different way than a than a Thomas Jefferson or George Washington. For Toussaint Louverture, the fact that he really did not start the, the Haitian Revolution that he There’s, you know, still some debate about where he was, when he began, and how soon he entered it. The point I wanted to make there was to demonstrate his skill at being able to analyze a situation, analyze the players involved, and and and find ways to maneuver his way To the top. I mean, I really want to I really want the reason to understand how significant it is that Toussaint Louverture came into the the revolution late, But he is going to ascend to the very top of it, and that both of these men had skill sets that made them the right people In the right place at the right time to, create the kinda diplomatic actions that they do together. So,

Ronald Johnson [00:10:01]:

you, you talk about John Adams’ administration practice, quote, idealistic Internationalism, unquote. Well, what’s that? What do you what do you what do you mean by that? Can you flesh that out for us a little bit?

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:10:13]:

Yes. No. Thank you. And thank you so much for for Grabbing on to that point because I do think it’s it’s 1 it’s I think it’s fairly important to the book, and it’s one of the things I was really wanting to get across. One of in the ways in which I discuss, John Adams in this this idealistic internationalism is very different in the way that George Washington or Thomas Jefferson approached his foreign policy. John Adams inherited a a a country that was very, very I mean, I know it’s hard to see the United States, you know, as not being a hegemonic, a major power. But in 17/97, it was not. It was a very small player on the world stage.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:10:52]:

And John Adams was really he was adamant at not being either under Britain or under France. He really wanted to carve out an independent, operation for the United States, And he was able to do that because of the way he saw the world. And I’ll give you a few he saw the world very differently than other Americans at the time. And I’ll give you a couple examples to build a point that I wanna make. When he was u the US minister in France, in the 17 I’m sorry. In Great Britain. In the 17 eighties, he had the opportunity to engage Muslim nations, the Barbary States of North Africa. He and he and Thomas Jefferson got into an incredible it went into a remarkable disagreement over about how to these nonwhite, negotiators, these non Christian negotiators.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:11:49]:

And where where I think John Adams bested Thomas Jefferson was. John Adams didn’t care about their race. He didn’t care about their religion. He viewed these men, from the eyes of what is in the best interest of the United States. And he approached it that way, and he opened negotiations with them as president with some of the same when he became president in 17/097 with some of these same Muslim negotiators, he negotiated a treaty not based on race, not based on religion, But based on we’re gonna we’re gonna negotiate with these nonwhite people, these people who are different than we are based on what I believe is in the best interest of our country. And it is that kind of idealism. He saw the United States as bigger than it was, and he was able to look past the differences of other people. And I believe that was essential to the way in which he approached, his interactions with Toussaint Louverture.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:12:47]:

Sure. But looking beyond the race of his interlocutors, the people he was negotiating with, looking beyond the differences between Saint Domingue And, the United States is saying, I see an opportunity here that allows the United States to grow larger and to reach our potential by engaging people who are unlike ourselves. And that’s the type of idealism that I believe that he brought to the office of the presidency The in ways that others did not at the time.

Ronald Johnson [00:13:17]:

Okay. Perfect. So I guess in some ways, When when when I read that, I said to myself that, this is this sounds like we can actually retroactively pass more judgment On the United States as far as race is concerned because here you are back then, they had an opportunity to engage, You know, nonwhite countries around the world, but because of, you know, white supremacy, They a lot of them chose that instead of, you know, choosing the path that John Adams did. Correct?

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:13:54]:

Yeah. Patrick, you nailed it. You absolutely nailed what I think is at the heart of my book. Because when I think when I as I was writing the book and as I As I think about it, as you just said, the United States had an opportunity. The United States had an opportunity to not to do something different, To relate to people in in a in a in a in a way that was to relate to people different than themselves as equals. And they chose Because of racism, because of a racist attitude, and because of their commitment to the enslavement of black people, They consciously chose not to do that. I find it sad. I find it just abhorrent, And I do think there’s a moral judgment to be made that it wasn’t as if everybody’s always doing this, that this was the only way.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:14:49]:

No. Haiti gave them an opportunity. Toussaint Louverture offered them an opportunity to be different. Jean Jacques Dessalines offered them another way, And white American leaders at the time chose racism. They chose that. And that and I do think that deserves Our our moral indignation and condemnation for a choice, a conscious choice that was made when they had the clear advantages of another opportunity.

Ronald Johnson [00:15:20]:

So, are you a fan of The Godfather? I’m going to see where the

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:15:27]:

the trilogy. Right? The with Brandon Brando. Yes. I love those movies. Yes.

Ronald Johnson [00:15:32]:

Now now if you say part 3 was your favorite, We might as well end this interview. Right?

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:15:37]:

No. No. That that is that is no. That is a nondiscussion. It is a disgrace to the rest of the series. Yes.

Ronald Johnson [00:15:43]:

Right. So I asked that because I think Coppola might sue you for copyright infringement because the way you set up that dinner party At secretary Pickering’s house was just pure genius. All yeah. All the main characters were, you know, at least, you know, were there. Can you, so let’s do something similar to with, The Pickering, dinner party, what Coppola did with the wedding, big party, in the first God Father, you know, to sort of sets the stage of all the main characters.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:16:20]:

Yes.

Ronald Johnson [00:16:20]:

So so set the stage for us, as far as who are the main characters, at that, dinner party, secretary Pickering’s, incredible dinner party. Who are the

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:16:32]:

main characters? 1st of all, thank you so much. What a wonderful, wonderful, characterization of one of my favorite parts of the book. And and the the book Actually opens, right, on this kinda muddy Philadelphia afternoon where, Joseph Bunnell, Joseph Winel was a white Frenchman who had been sent from Cap Francaise, in Saint Domingue to Philadelphia, and he arrives there in December of 17/98. So it’s cold. It’s muddy, and it rained the day before. And here he is walking upon these streets, and he arrives at the secretary of state’s house, Timothy Pickering. And, And he he arrives there, and he’s allowed into he he’s welcomed into the home. And this this dinner is happening, just after a very contentious day at the congress and 2 of the congressmen who had really championed, Toussaint Louverture and Saint Domingue, they they were there.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:17:35]:

So it’s about 5 people at this dinner, and they’re what they’re doing is is is really strategizing really strategizing in secret how they are going to bring these To these 2 countries together, how these 2 different countries are gonna work together over against the resistance that Timothy Pickering knows he is going to encounter. And it really is a wonderful planning session Where they go they they they consider who are the adversaries, how do we get to them, what are their needs, and how do we I would show them we have what you need if you give us what we need. It is the I and I’ve never really thought about the godfather, depiction that you raised, but I think it is pretty apropos when you think about it. I mean, because one of the people that is there is Robert Good little Harper. He’s from South he’s from South Carolina. So he is a southern, and so he was there to give the opinion. Okay. When we talk to southern Congressman, when we talk to southern, men, these are the things that they they’re gonna need.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:18:42]:

You’re gonna need he’s telling this white man from Saint Domingue, this former slaveholder from Saint Domingue that when you talk to my colleagues from the South, this is the way you have to talk about slavery. This is the way you have to talk about black people. Right? And so and then he then he had, you know, and then he has Otis, right, Harrison Otis from Massachusetts. And his role there is to say, when you’re talking to men from the north, this is the way you wanna talk about trade. This is the way you wanna talk about, shipping. And so together, they create this wonderful political strategy that is absolutely brilliant, and in and eventually successful.

Ronald Johnson [00:19:24]:

Mhmm. So, what are what are the, and this is all prep before They they they they to meet the president. Right? To meet John Adams. So They strategize of how the next meeting is going to happen. Right? Yeah. So pick it up there.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:19:43]:

I will do that. Yes. So before Because, you know, John Adams you know, I I put his name on the front of the book because he’s the president at the time. And I think when when a leader is sitting in a in a in the office, They should get credit for the things to go right, but they also should be blamed for the things that go wrong. That’s the price of leadership. But the architect Of US diplomacy with Saint Domingue was the secretary of state Timothy Pickering. He’s a very he’s very little known in American circles in American history circles. But in this case, he was central, and he understood that when he when he took this plan to the president with the to the president of United States, He was gonna be able to he needed to demonstrate that we can pull this off.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:20:24]:

So there is very little, evidence that Adams knew anything about this about this policy before, you know, before he actually meets him. So all these things that are happening in secret, all these things that are happening are to prep. So after this dinner, Timothy Pickering takes, Joseph Brunel. He takes the, The, envoy from Tucson Louverture, and he takes in with Harper, and then they go talk to southern congressman About getting, a a closer relationship with, Saint Domingue, and then Harper And, Harper will hand him off hand Bunnell off to, Harrison Otis, and he and Timothy Otis, Timothy Pickering, And Bunnell will go and talk to northern, congressman about, closer ties with Saint Domingue. And then after Timothy Pickering secures enough what he believe is enough support, then he arranged a dinner, at the president’s house Between John Adams and Joseph Bunnell, and Adams meets with him. One of the thing go, there was this Common misunderstanding about Joseph Bunnell in early American history. And I understand that particularly around black history, people really wanted this to be the 1st dinner between the president and a man of color. But as it turns out, Joseph Bunnell was a, a white man operating on behalf of a man of color, and that makes it no less significant.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:21:54]:

They not they they don’t have just 1 dinner. John Adams invites Joseph Bunnell to the president’s house in Philadelphia for 2 dinners, which means he is in. He has bought in on this plan. Because when word gets out, and it does, it leaks to the newspapers. As much as they’re trying to keep the secret, Word gets out to the local newspapers position, but to particularly newspapers that are opposed to president’s actions talking about these dinners that the president is having with Bunnell, and they try to discredit Bunnell. This is, you know, early on early on in American history, the media was a tool as it is today, a tool for trying to either to, support certain things, but also to distract from certain things. And when when word gets out in the opposition newspapers that Toussaint Louverture’s envoy is meeting with the president, The newspapers make it known that he is married to a black woman. And So Marie Marie Francois, Mouton Bunnell was a former enslaved person.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:23:02]:

She and Touton Louverture were had been close friends for for at least a decade prior to the revolution, and the newspaper is beginning to smear Bunnell’s name Because now the president of the United States has invited a white man to dinner, which is not that extraordinary, but this white man Was was meeting with the president on behalf of a black leader, and this white man is married to a black woman. And so that this these dinners and these secret negotiations became very, very public, very, very quickly, But they did not they did not derail, the process of Saint Domingue and the United States growing closer together.

Ronald Johnson [00:23:46]:

So is this the end well, another thing I find incredible about this is we’re talking about 17/97. Right?

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:23:55]:

Yes.

Ronald Johnson [00:23:55]:

The, a white man is the mouthpiece for a black man behind the scenes. To think about I want the audience to think about that for a moment.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:24:11]:

Yeah. Let’s not yeah. I I agree that. Let’s not just Pass by that is if you know, that that was extraordinary. I mean, it was absolutely extraordinary. And that was one of the things and I won’t I won’t try I’ll try to preempt them, but throughout this book and throughout my research, the interplay between black men and white men in this book are just very different during this time period than you see anywhere else, not only in the United States, not only in Saint Domingue, But in the world, it it was just absolutely extraordinary. And Toussaint Louverture made and one of the I argue in the book that Toussaint Louverture made a Calculated decision to send a white man in his stead. Mhmm.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:24:57]:

That was I mean, he had plenty. He his general staff was all black men and men of color. He had governors There is a cross said domain that could have gone, but he chose a white man because I believe stood the minds of white Americans. And he and he chose a white man who was married to a good friend of his. And so there so not only is the white not only is Joseph Bunnell representing a black man, But I argue in the book that he actually got his job because he was married to a black woman. And so in the 17 nineties, it was currency in said domain, at least, for a white man to be close to black people. Whereas in many other cases, it is the exact opposite. And so what was going on in Saint Domingue and was incredibly revolutionary, And Bunnell was was faithful to his position.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:26:01]:

He he served Toussaint Louverture faithful. He represented his interest, with professionalism. And he was so good at what he did, he maintained that relationship. He he continued to work for Toussaint Louverture threw out Louverture’s, tenure, as governor general of Saint Domingue, and he was gonna take on that same role For, when he takes over the country and declared its independence in 18/04. So he really, really Did not seem to have the issues of white versus black. He he he he had no he had very little problems being a white man working for a black man, in the 17 nineties and into the early 19th centuries. And the question I have is, how many white men could have done that During that time period, it really was an extraordinary juxtaposition of power, into what was happening in Saint Domingue and, eventually, Haiti.

Ronald Johnson [00:27:17]:

So it’s safe to say is that Bunnell was an affirmative action hire. I mean, I’m just I mean, you know, a token hire. I mean, you know

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:27:31]:

He he He was there. He knew I mean

Ronald Johnson [00:27:36]:

I’m in.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:27:38]:

He he was Okay. I gotta catch myself. That was great. He was part of Toussaint Louverture’s strategy Mhmm. Of showing the world that showing the Atlantic world that Saint Domingue was not a scary place. Mhmm. Saint Domingue is a place that is operated on on on rationale, on prowess, On intellectual ingenuity, this is not a place he was really trying to count on the narrative because by the time he takes over Saint Domingue in 17/9/87, The the narrative in the newspapers across the Atlantic world was Saint Domingue is a place of murder. It’s a place of massacre.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:28:22]:

And these black people there are just they’re they’re they’re operating like animals. And so one of his biggest, necessities was to portray to the world a a a a an up and coming nation that operated very similar to other Atlantic world nations. And by sending this white man as his representative was one of the ways he was saying, we Can’t deal. We are we are open for business with white Americans, with white people. We can operate in this this narrative of that we just murder white people. Yes. We we had defeated a lot of white people here on this island, but that is not what we are about. We are not just about racial slaughter.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:29:06]:

Right. We’re about opening ourselves for business, and was a was a, I think, the right person to send that message.

Ronald Johnson [00:29:14]:

It’s not just. You had to yeah. We’re more we’re more than that. So let’s let’s talk about the the actual, trade, you know, the properties of the trade. What what did what was the United States, Looking for Yeah. At the time. And what what did to say what? And also This thing another incredible thing was the use of the US Navy for the first time on behalf of Haiti. I wanna us to really get into that.

Ronald Johnson [00:29:47]:

That’s that’s fascinating too. So What are what are the the particulars of the trade that each side was trying to get from the other?

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:29:55]:

So and once again, Patrick, you just asked such good question. And I think Talking about the trade allows me to me it allows me to note another central aspect of the book, and that is In terms of the Atlantic world, in 17/70/17/97, 17, 98, 17/99, The United States and Saint Domingue were practically equals. They were both very prosperous colonies. They were one’s a country. One’s a emerging country. They were very prod the Atlantic world needed these 2 places to operate, And they were both fairly rich. They they they provided a lot of goods to the rest of the Atlantic world. And so the United States needed Saint Domingue just as much as Saint Domingue needed the United States.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:30:48]:

It is so different than the way we think of Haitian American relations Today. And one of the things I want this book to show people is that in the in in when we first began when these 2 countries first began to deal with each other. They dealt with each other as relatively e as relative equals, and part of that was the trade. The United States have been trading with Saint Domingue since 17 seventies. I mean, since well before that, but the trade was So close. And Saint Domingue would send to, the United States. They would send sugar. They would send coffee.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:31:24]:

They would send indigo. Many of the products, that you would find across Caribbean colonies. But the thing about Saint Domingue is it was the world leading producer sugar in the Caribbean. And so those numbers went way up. And in return, the United States would send, food stuff, particularly fish and other things like that. And it was a very, very brisk trade that these 2 had. But when these 2 men come to when these 2 men come to power, or take over the leadership. Saint Domingue is only 2nd in terms of trade with the United States, 2nd only to Britain, I mean, which Which says just how important and it is a it is just behind Britain in the amount of dollars in which they the United States has sent them in trade with each other.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:32:13]:

These 2 nation these 2 countries needed each other. And so when in 17/98 congress remember, I mentioned earlier that France was very upset with the United States for not helping out with the war with in its war with Great Britain. And so what it did was began to attack American ships In the sea and as a reprisal as a punishment to France, the United States put an embargo on all trade with France, including the Caribbean island, the the the colonies in the in the Caribbean. And this is where when When Toussaint Louverture initiated and that’s the other thing I want our readers to understand. It was a black man that initiated this diplomacy See, with the United States, it wasn’t the United States dictating the terms. Toussaint Louverture sent Bunnell to say, We have something you need. We have goods that you need, and we would like you to end the embargo and trade directly with us despite what Paris may have to say. So this is a very autonomous move that Toussaint Louverture is making.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:33:21]:

And when the United States respond when John Adams respond, it’s not we’re gonna trade with all France. It is we’re gonna open up trade only with Saint Domingue. The embargo on all the rest of France stays, but we’re gonna open up trade with these 2 nations I mean, with Saint Domingue directly. And so the United States has sent them a open this train. And, I mean, just to give you a step, there there are reports that on some days, looking at Cape Front Say, there would be 400 ships out in the harbor awaiting to get from the United States to Saint Domingue, to to offload those port. It was an incredibly important it was an incredibly important trade relationship between these 2 countries when trade was the way in which countries across the Atlantic world enriched themselves. So it was no small task. It was no small feat what these men were doing.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:34:16]:

And in order to maintain that trade because France did not want this. France’s parents did not want this relationship between, Toussaint Louverture and John Adams. And so France began to send, its ships, the French ships, to to attack and to take the goods that were headed for Saint Domingue. Therefore, John Adams sent the United States Navy. He sent the a squadron Of US ships, including the constitution. It’s a very famous American ship. It’s actually moored out in Boston Harbor to this day. It’s a very famous ship.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:34:55]:

And before it became famous, it it it was the it was the flagship of the American Navy in Saint Domingue, And he sent it there initially to protect this trade between Saint Domingue and the United States against the French. And what happened in 17/99, where the United States really engages What is, the San Domingo Revolution? Is in 17/99, a rival to Toussaint Louverture, A rival by the name of Andre Rigaud, a very capable general, in his own right, a man of color, starts a civil war against Tucson to use to take over, leadership of Saint Domingue. And so Tucson Louverture, the armies of Tucson Louverture, which predominantly are in the north and predominantly black, began to go they go to war with the armies of Andre Rigaud, which are predominantly in the south and predominantly, of men of color of, Jean de Couleur, between European heritage and African heritage. And but it’s not necessarily war of color. Some Some people have talked about this is a war of color. My book doesn’t do that. I don’t go there because I think this is 2 men who were both very capable and who saw themselves as being able to lead this, lead this colony. And the United States picks a side.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:36:24]:

The United States sides very early on with Toussaint Louverture, and the United States engages the US Navy to attack Rigo, Rigo’s army, Rigo’s, naval vessels, And they attack it very on the side of Toussaint Louverture. They they are very open. We’re we we are not neutral in this fight. We want to start to win because we believe the United States, and to start to work together In a very different way than we could with with with Regal. And not only does he send not only does Adam send the navy to Saint Domingue, but he puts American I mean, again, as you said earlier, Patrick, this is 1798. He put 7991800. John Adams puts the these white US naval captains Under the authority of Toussaint Louverture, Toussaint Louverture had the power and he gave the power to send American Navy ships to where he wanted them to go, and they obeyed his orders. The I I and I can find no other instance in history, and I love for somebody to show it to me.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:37:44]:

I’m not saying it’s unique because I found it. It’s just I just can’t imagine another instance where White American naval captains are taking orders from a formerly enslaved black man. And when I say taking orders, he tells the ship to go. They went. When Toussaint Louverture would board a ship, He would board the ship with full naval honor, which means they would fire their cannons in salute of a head of state Coming on board this vessel, which I just found that absolutely fascinating. And in Letter after letter from these navy captains, they say to L’Ouverture, I am here to serve you. White American navy captains are telling a black man In in Saint Domingue, I am sent here to serve you. I just was I was just I just I every time I say it, I just can’t believe that I actually found that in the record.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:38:43]:

And I’m just trying to find anywhere else in history where you see white Americans telling a black Man, I came here to serve you. And in the 1st engagement and I’ll and I’ll stop here. But in the 1st engagement

Ronald Johnson [00:38:56]:

No. Please keep going.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:38:57]:

Of of the United States. So, you know, I mean, when we think about the US Navy and alliances, most people are gonna think that we we were first allied with France, we were 1st allied. We, we we allied our navy with the British, but it was in Central Bank. It was the first time in American naval history that the United States sent its naval forces, to protect and defend the the territory of another of a foreign ally. And it wasn’t just moving ships here and there. The one of the ships, the general green, Actually fired, like, actually shot its cannons in a hostile manner against Rigo’s forces That actually turned the tide in that war. Like, it it was one of the last major battles in that war, and it was a coordinate Toussaint Louverture coordinated this attack. He had the nave the US Navy bombard the beach off Jacques Mill, the harbor at Jacques Mill, and then he came in with his, his forces In a in a coordinated attack between the US Navy and and and libertarian army to defeat, Rigo at It’s it’s a phenomenal, phenomenal engagement, and I was just shocked that I never heard this before as I went through You know, here I am.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:40:18]:

I have gone through all this schooling that I went through, and I’m like, why don’t we talk about this? Why don’t we talk about this close relationship The United States has had with Haiti even at its inception, and I think it goes back to something you said earlier in our conversation. Because there is moral condemnation there for the United States to have been this close And this integral into the early relationship that that that helps to lead to the creation of Haiti And then turn its back on Haiti. I do think there is something I just think there is something morally degraded, morally reprehensible about that decision that white Americans took to say, we know that this is possible. We know this is a profitable relationship. We know there are mute mutual benefits for both of our nations, and yet we’re going to succumb to racism. We’re going to sell our our democratic soul to slavery. And and that’s one of the reasons I think we don’t talk about it as

Ronald Johnson [00:41:24]:

So, so the the the agreements the agreements the trade, it happened, right, between the 2 nations, And there’s the military support. Pick up after that. When did things start? You know? What happened to both men? And, that sort of made that diplomacy in black and white short lived. And Yeah. What time span? How how many years did you think that relationship lasted? 2

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:41:52]:

Yes. So it was, so both men both men come to come both men take control of their nations in, 17/97. Mhmm. Bunnell Bunnell arrived in December of 17/98. The official congress The congress vote in, February 17 99 to give, the president, president John m, the authority to have negotiations and to secure a An agreement with, Saint Domingue. In June of 17/99 is the official treaty. There’s an official treaty, between, Toussaint Louverture, Edward Stevens, and, a British representative in June of 17/99, And, and so they conclude the actual treaty, the Tripartite Treaty in 79. So that’s the official opening of relations.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:42:43]:

The civil war with, Rigo kicks off just a few months after that. That war ends in 17 in in in the beginning of 1800. So so from June June mostly from July of 17, 99 until, John Adams Is defeated in his presidency and has taken over, you know, it’s he’s, succeeded by Thomas Jefferson. So The the relationship lasts only from about July of 17/99 to March of 7 of 18/01, so about a year and a half. It’s a very short time period. But a lot occurred in that time period. After, you know, after, the war with is Solved. And Toussaint Louverture is the unequivocal leader of Saint Domingue.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:43:34]:

He really he begins to govern the country, puts in some, policies, about labor, about marriage. He’s really trying to build a society, throughout the you know? I mean, Saint Domingue had been at war from 17/91 almost continuously, to to 1800. And so now he is trying to to build a society, give now free people, free people of color, free black people, A sense of citizenship, a sense of society, a sense of community, and he’s getting a lot of encouragement from, the United States. John Adams sends a doctor, a white American doctor named Edward Stephens. He sends in there with a draft, constitution Because there’s no there’s no constitution in Saint Domingue. And one of the things that, Tucson is gonna do, which I think was one of the great things he did, was to implement a San Domingo constitution in 18/01, and parts of those documents are taken directly from The, document that, Edward Stevens, brought down on behalf of the president, not all of them, but he did take some of that. And again, there’s this real there’s a lot of collaboration between these 2 nations, and then he decides, cusan luviso decides that he wants to Take over all of Hispaniola. Right? So Santo Domingo, the Spanish colony, right next door to Saint Domingue, had been ceded back to France, but it’s remained Spanish.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:45:10]:

Well, just so literature decides what I’m going to expand this colony. I’m going to engulf the entirety of of of of Hispaniola, the whole island. And the United States encourages him to do that. And the United States sets up the the navy around the entire So to give the Tucson Louverture the ability to do that. But this is a Tucson Louverture decision, and he goes in and he takes over all of his. So by 18/01, Toussaint Louverture expanded Saint Domingue to include all of Hispaniola. He abolished slavery, in Santo Domingo. So In 18/01, when he take when literature takes over the island, there is the there is the dominance of Black people on that island for the first time since 14/19, since Columbus had arrived on that island.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:46:00]:

Slavery no longer exists on the island. And and so throughout this time, there are so many different things that are going on, so many positives, and then Thomas Jefferson Thomas Jefferson, takes over as president in 18/01, and all of these things I’ve just mentioned and we’ve been Talking about Patrick, within a month of Thomas Jefferson taking over, he removed the US Navy completely from San Dominguez waters. He recalls every last ship automatically. He he downgrades Edward Stevens’ position From a consul general, from a minister to just a commercial agent, he is undoing within his 1st 5 months. He undoes every diplomatic, stride that John Adams has made. And and that is how in the United States, John, this legacy begins to be erased and forgotten. From the San Dominguez side, when Toussaint Louverture issued the the San Dominguez constitution, He he really invited the wrath of Napoleon, in France. And because then Napoleon really saw that this is a man that we cannot control, and so Napoleon sends an expeditionary force, in 18/01, it arrived in 18/02.

Ronald Johnson [00:47:30]:

And, you know, within 6 months of that of that of Leclerc and his expedition arriving in Saint Domingue. Was arrested, and sent to France, and he is going to be imprisoned at Fort DeJou out on the eastern borders with Switzerland, and he will die there, in April 18/03. So what had begun in 18 in 17/97 continued in 17/98 is almost completely undone by 18/02. So it’s very short lived, and it’s a book in the end of a lost Opportunity. And I think that’s the sad part that I really I did not want to end on that note, but any end, it was an opportunity That could have led to a very, very different relationship between Haiti and the United States. And once Haiti declared its independence, once Jean Jacques Dessalines took over from Toussaint Louverture, defeated the French, in 18 in November of 18 03 and declared the country independent. The United States decided We will have no part of that even though the United States had been an integral part in assisting and collaborating With the Haitian people to get to that point, Thomas Jefferson decided he wanted no part of that. And our relationship, I think, From that decision on and not just Tom Diffely because I don’t wanna blame it on him, but that decision and then the successive decisions to not engage Haiti as an equal nation Right up until today at some level, I think has really hurt the what could have been between Haiti and the United States For almost over for over 2 decades.

Ronald Johnson [00:49:20]:

And and Haiti and the world 2 centuries.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:49:22]:

Yeah. Haiti and the world. Yeah. Haiti and the world for over 2 for over 2 centuries. Yes.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:49:28]:

Wow. And it would have been amazing what what they could have done for for slave holding, United States at that time. Right? Like, what because it was still it wasn’t until, what, 18/65

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:49:40]:

that It was yes. Yeah. Not until 18/65. And and I and I believe at some level, it was cause of what Haiti could have meant for slavery in the United States. I believe that was one of the most powerful influences That the United slaveholders and the slaveholder proponents in United States understood that if we acknowledge this independent nation, If we acknowledge these black people as being able to govern, being able to have a military prowess, That is going to hurt our capacity and our arguments for maintaining the enslavement of black people in our own nation. And I think that That commitment to slavery, really, it hurt the United States, and it hurt Haiti, and it hurt us it hurt both of our nations And the world because of that.

Ronald Johnson [00:50:28]:

So why do you think this this would this isn’t may based It’s on your your your your research. Like, this wasn’t found. Like, when I first talked to you about it, I was I I didn’t know that. I talked to even some some other service. Yeah. I kinda they kinda know, but how come that’s not is it because the period of Collaboration is so short. Why has that been not discussed or the archives? I mean, do are there any nothing? You found nothing on it? Were you the 1st one to discover this and actually publish a book on it, or was it there for others to see that people just did other historians just didn’t take it on?

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:51:06]:

No. That’s that’s that’s a really, really great question. And I and I don’t wanna I wanna say I’m the 1st to to notice this. Right? Because for a century before my book came out, Mary Trudley, Raeford Logan. Some major, major historians of Haitian American relations have talked about it, But they talked about this relationship as simply a well, in 2 fact in 2 ways. Right? 1, they talked about it, They talked about it in a way that, oh, this was just United States using Saint Domingue as a way to get back at the French. Right? So it had nothing to do with the relationship between Saint Domingue and Haitien. The United States, it was all about what the United States could do to hurt France.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:51:47]:

That was one Proposition. The other was this was all about trade that the United States did not really care what was happening in, Saint Domingue or the political ramifications, they just wanted the trade. And I just found when I thought about this, Patrick, I found both of those, explanations lacking. And and I’ll tell you why I found them lacking because when you look deeper At the the ways in which race influenced this decision and the ways in which both Toussaint Louverture and John Adams and the people that work for them negotiated the racial factors in this. You see people making decisions. John Adams made decisions. Toussaint Louverture made decision. Edward Stevens made decisions.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:52:32]:

Joseph Bunnell made decisions that were all different than if you just wanted to hurt France or to just do trade. The ways in which these individuals the ways in which these individuals related to each other, Had dinner with each other in one of the negotiations in order to seal the deal on the negotiation, Toussaint Louverture reaches over And grabs the white hands of Edward Stevens, moise, general moise, a nephew of toussaint louis, invited, the officer the white officers of the, the uss constitution to his home to have dinner I mean, the the president of the United States invited Bunnell to have dinner. It was the the the the the residence of the US minister in Saint Domingue Was they rented was one of Tucson Loubouture’s rented houses. So, I mean, there was all these relationships that went unseen Because previous scholars simply went with the trope of that the tropes that race didn’t matter. And and when you but when you look at it and you look at the archive, it’s there. But if you’re not asking the right questions, If you’re not asking a question of why did these men do these things, why did these men say these things, Then you don’t get to the answers that I have. I simply I mean, I looked at many of the same sources from the National Archives, from, The bingo tech national in Haiti, the, the French archives in Aix en Provence, they’re there, But people just simply didn’t see them in the way that I did. Mhmm.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:54:10]:

They simply they saw them as just whole Boilerplate language when what I saw was relationships being built and cultivated between People across different races at a time when that just simply wasn’t the norm.

Ronald Johnson [00:54:28]:

Okay. So I guess that’s a that’s a, this is a masterclass lesson on on, what you bring to the to the archives Is what you’re gonna get out of it. Right? Like, it’s

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:54:40]:

You nailed it.

Ronald Johnson [00:54:42]:

Yeah. Okay.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:54:43]:

No. No. You nailed it. What you go in what you go in looking for or not wanting to find is what you’re gonna find and not find. Yeah. I I think it has so much more to do I think it has as much to do with the author, with the researcher, As with the sources. I that’s a great way to put that.

Ronald Johnson [00:54:58]:

Yeah. Well, professor, thank you. Thank you. This was Very, very enlightening. This is very a great book. I hope everybody gets it. Thank you for being on the show.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:55:09]:

Thank you, Patrick. Thanks so much for reading my book so closely and so for such great question. This was an absolute delight. Thank you.

Ronald Johnson [00:55:16]:

I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Please Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook at podcast. That’s with AW not in r.