Michael Deibert [00:00:00]:

Hi. This is Michael Deibert. My area of specialty is 19th 20th century Haiti with a particular focus on Haiti from the 19 nineties until the present day. The books I’m going to discuss with Patrick today are Notes from the Last Testament, The Struggle for Haiti, Haiti Will Not Perish, a recent history, and my forthcoming book with the pen in one hand and the sword in the other, Haiti and the United States in the 19th century.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:00:27]:

It’s from the last testament. The struggle for Haiti. What’s the story behind the title? What what are you what are you trying to what did you try to capture? What are you trying to capture there?

Michael Deibert [00:00:39]:

I chose the the title for Notes from the Last Testament. It was kind of a a combination of inspirations. One of my favorite poets actually is, is an American an African American poet named Amiri Baraka. And he had, one of his most famous poems is called Notes from a Speech. And there was a whole obviously, you know, in Haiti with the liberation theology movement and things like that, there’s this whole religious aspect. So in in some ways, I was hoping, at the time with the you know, this democratic dream that then curdled into this kind of nightmare under Aristide and Blavelas in the late 19 nineties and early 2000. I was hoping what we were seeing was the last chapter of that kind of destructive, political reality in Haiti on its road, one hoped, to a kind of democracy that was representative of and responsive to the needs of the population. Unfortunately, of course, in the intervening, 20 years, it didn’t turn out quite to be the last chapter of that kind of misgovernance.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:01:38]:

You dedicated this book to 4 people. Tell us about them.

Michael Deibert [00:01:43]:

Yes. I I dedicated the book to to a number of people. 3 of them were journalists, 2 who were Haitian, Jean Dominique and Jacques Roche, and one who was Spanish, Ricardo Ortega, all 3 of whom, died in the commission of their of their work as journalists. I also, dedicated it to two Guys I knew from Cite Soleil, Winston Jean Bart, who was known as Tupac, and James, Petit Freres, who’s known as Billy, who’s also known as who in some ways, I think, represented the the promise, that Aristide and Lavalas once held, for Haiti and and the perversion and destruction of that promise and and of the future and the lives eventually of those kids in those, neighborhoods that were were used as the chimere and later became, you know, previously and post were also known as the baz. And I also dedicated it to, my grandmother, Lea Lea Maude Breon, who was someone who was very dear to me who passed away, just before the book’s publication.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:02:43]:

Any 5 categories that are missing from how American media covers Haiti?

Michael Deibert [00:02:49]:

I think, Haiti is an extremely, complicated place for for foreign reporters, to cover for a variety of reasons. Number 1, of course, there’s the the issue of language. You know, I don’t think in my estimation, English or French are enough to get by. I think you really need Creole in order to be able to communicate and with the population and understand what’s going on. Another thing that I think is problematic is, especially with the kind of degradation of the security situation in Haiti in recent years, I I think a lot of foreign journalists are kind of kept at an arm’s length from interacting in any sort of natural way with with with Haitians in in an everyday, capacity. I mean, one thing I always felt very blessed about is is the fact that I used public transportation and and spoke Creole and kind of went all over the country and all over the, you know, Port au Prince. You were able to, to interact with Haitians on a daily basis in a way that was beyond simply viewing them as interview subjects and viewing them as as human beings who would be, you know, having a wedding or going out on a Friday night to to relax in Jacmel or Capaesyan, or would be working on some sort of irrigation project in Pappae. And I think, putting yourself in that kind of intimacy with the people you’re reporting on is really is really important if you want to reflect, accurately the goals and and dreams and personalities of countries like Haiti.

Michael Deibert [00:04:18]:

Because I think simply talking to the political actors kind of, you know, at the Hotel Montana or whatever hotel they’re meeting at or, you know, even less so kind of foreign analysts and and and foreign diplomats. You’re really missing a whole nuance country there, the beauty of the life of the country there. I mean, I mean, I think most people most foreigners who have spent a lot of time in Haiti would tell you that the best part of the country is the people, their sense of humor, their loquaciousness, their storytelling abilities, and hospitality hospitableness, I guess you might say, which is, you know, something that’s always been impressed upon me since I started going there in in 1997. And I think also it’s it’s it’s not a black and white situation in the sense of I often find in foreign media, they want to portray, You know, 1 political actor is a villain, 1 political actor is a hero or a force for democracy, and I found in my, you know, 2 plus decades in Haiti that You can have bad people who do good things for complicated reasons and good people who do bad things for complicated reasons. So I think it’s really It’s really important to report in the place with a great deal of a great deal of nuance, a great deal of sensitivity, and a great deal of empathy for the enormous struggles that the everyday people are going through there just to get from one day to the next.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:05:40]:

Your book opens in Tiguan.

Michael Deibert [00:05:43]:

I opened my book at the funeral of a journalist named Brigno Lindor, who was murdered, by a mob of of partisans of the La Valois regime in in 2001 in Haiti. And, a couple months before, I had moved down to Haiti full time to to take the position of a Reuters correspondent. And I was extremely floored when I went to Tigray to see this funeral, because I had been someone up to that point who I would say I wasn’t an uncritical supporter, but I was somewhat sympathetic to to the Aristide government and to La Balas because I had some idea of what they were up against given the coup of 1991 and the de facto regime and and such. And when I went to, for this funeral, I saw, you know, thousands and thousands of people, in the streets, not of the elite, definitely of the of the regular population and many of whom with quite, you know, of quite modest means furiously angry against the government. Not just because of the murder of this journalist Brigitte Amador, but because of what they saw as this kind of rancid totalitarian drift of the president and the party. And for me, that was a real wake up call because, you know, These people were not paid to be there or anything like that. They were genuinely furious at the direction the country was was going. And so for me, that was a very illuminating experience and a kind of very pivotal moment.

Michael Deibert [00:07:06]:

That’s why I thought it was important to to begin the book there. At the end of the book, I I at the end of the chapter, rather, I I write that, you know, what happens outside the fray can often tell you more than the fray itself, and the silence will call you in every time. And for me, some of the conversations I had that day with protesters, with police, with, my fellow journalists whereas illuminating in terms of contextualizing the the kind of political unrest I was I was witnessing as the unrest itself. I mean, it’s One thing to to witness, you know, a demonstration or some sort of political eruption, it’s another thing to have the background to be able to correctly analyze what you’re seeing. And so that day was very instructive to me on that score.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:07:51]:

Dead bodies were the currency of politics And Haiti. That’s a that’s a powerful line. Can you expand on that, please?

Michael Deibert [00:08:01]:

I wrote that dead bodies are the currency of politics in Haiti, in reference to what I see as often the the modus operandi of those who seek, political power in Haiti, which a lot of the times is not kind of trying to win a contest of ideas, but rather is by putting this kind of icy hand of the threat of total extermination against people who would oppose them. And, I mean, it’s something that we’ve seen at various points throughout Haitian history and in the last, you know, 25, 30 years, it certainly coalesced kind of around this baz phenomenon, where political parties, you know, they have their armed baz who basically tells people to vote the way they want them to or or actually commits, you know, fraud at the ballot box or whatnot and then are used as a kind of bludgeon by the political actors once once they get into power in the hopes of of reward. But, obviously, you know, as we’ve seen in recent years, I mean, this is a a kind of self, destructive pattern. I mean, these these guys who are used as these, you know, the praetorian guard of these various politicians. I mean, they don’t have a really long lifespan, and there’s not really a an end game other than trying to kind of, you know, exercise as much power and get as many advantages, financial and otherwise, during the extremely brief time that whoever is the the patron holds power.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:09:30]:

We had fed the heart on fantasies, the heart’s grown brutal from the fair, more substance in our enmities than in our love. Oh, honeybees, come build in the empty house of the stair. Why did you include this, William Butler Yeats’ poem called The Stair’s Nest by My Window. What does it have to do with with, your framing of Haiti?

Michael Deibert [00:09:57]:

I chose, the William Butler Yeats poem, The Stair’s Nest by My Window, as the epigraph for my first book on Haiti, Notes from the Last Testament, because Yeats, when he wrote that, was referring to what he viewed as the consuming violence of the Irish civil war. And I found in in the lines of this poem something that really resonated with me in terms of what I had seen happen in Haiti, you know, between 1994 and 2004. Obviously, in in 1994, when democracy was returned to Haiti. There was this hope that that coup in 1991 was just a blip on Haiti’s move towards having their participatory representative democracy and, you know, some more equality for the people. And, instead, what happened was, you know, things got continued on this extremely bloody, and nonrepresentative path, and there was almost this animating energy of of revenge, on on multiple sides of this conflict. So when I read, you know, Yeats’ lines about mourning is what he saw had been this kind of, you know, animating anger and and desire for for vengeance in Ireland, back in that time. It it really, to me, reflected what I was witnessing in Haiti, when I was reporting there in the early 2000.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:11:23]:

A friend of yours said this. You know why I hated it when the Americans came? Because they should have given us a real occupation. What they gave Japan and Germany after World War 2, They should have destroyed this idea, this hateful, destructive idea. They should have completely changed the system of government, Rebuilt the infrastructure, ripped out and replaced the educational system. They should have destroyed this destructive myth once and for all. Then we would have had a chance. What did your Haitian doctor Frin mean by This hateful, destructive idea, destructive myth.

Michael Deibert [00:12:10]:

The way I interpreted My friends’ statements in that context were they were just this kind of expression of exasperation in the sense of, you know, The allies after World War 2, occupied Japan and and Germany, and, both of those countries in in the Postwar aftermath ended up being these extremely flourishing, robust economies and, functioning democracies and whatnot. And I think, he his impression at the time was that, you know, Haiti always got kind of the raw end of the bargain or the short end of the stick. And even when they were occupied, they got kind of a a second rate occupation, if you will. Hey, Patrick. Can you hear me okay?

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:13:20]:

Okay. Cool. How are you doing? Not bad. How’s, how’s the weather?

Michael Deibert [00:13:26]:

In Baltimore, actually, well, you know, with global warming, there’s basically no winter anymore. So it’s like, It’s it’s disturbing. I mean, we’ve had some days that were in the seventies.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:13:38]:

Michael, there is a such thing as global warming. You know? Where’d you get that idea? There’s global warming. I I thought according to 1 party, there’s no such thing.

Michael Deibert [00:13:50]:

You know, I always the the thing for me is I remember when I was living in Miami in the mid nineties. So January, February, you would have days that were like in the forties in South Florida back then. And the last Christmas, I was in Miami, which was 2016. It was 90 on Christmas Day.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:14:10]:

Yeah. Yeah. My my kids who, who are both born in the Midwest, especially my 17 year old, she she misses the, The snow living down here. You know? But, yeah. So I wanted to, could not finish up. We got about 17 minutes. Maybe we won’t do the, the asynchronous anymore because it’s acting weird. Okay.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:14:37]:

Yeah.

Michael Deibert [00:14:38]:

Yeah. It’s weird because, the first 10 or so questions were fine, and, I answered them. And then for, like, the last, 8, There was no at least on my end, I couldn’t see any text, and I couldn’t get a recording of you asking the questions. So I didn’t know Wow. What you wanted. So

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:14:56]:

Yeah. Usually, I leave the I mean, sometimes I didn’t get around to recording my voice, so the text Should serve as substitute, and then I can go back later and add my voice to it, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. So, it has some advantages, but, You know? Some some scholars prefer it. Others others don’t. You know? So I wanted to go back To to your doctor friend. Okay.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:15:22]:

That that for some reason, that intrigued me. Okay. So what what exactly When he said the word destructive myth, immediately what came to my mind was, You know, what I call the 1804 syndrome that, you know, a lot of Haitians have arguments with. Like, I was like I’m like, you gotta you gotta get out of that Mindset. Right? Like, you can’t be the, you know, the, Al Bundy. Remember that show, American Children? Yeah. Al Bundy’s, you know, he he’s stuck on his high school glory days as a football player. Right? So sometimes, I think Haitians are sort of, A plague with that.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:16:03]:

Is that what he meant, or did he need something something to say that?

Michael Deibert [00:16:07]:

I mean, like like I said, when When he was speaking, what I took to be what he was trying to convey was was this idea that Yeah. 22 things. I mean, one that, you know, that in his view that Haiti had all the negative aspects of an occupation and none of what you might consider the positive aspects such as happened in Japan after World War 2 or something like that.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:16:32]:

Mhmm.

Michael Deibert [00:16:32]:

So all of the national humiliation and trauma and and racism, but none of the real, you know, structural change or anything like that. Mhmm. And I think when he was talking about the, You know, the the the destructive myth. I mean yeah. I mean, I I assumed that there was this implication that the that The current political leaders were always turning the candle back to the past and and seeing themselves as somehow inheritors of the of the mantle of Toussaint or Dessalines, whereas they were in fact even incapable of addressing the problems that were happening today, let alone be this historical figure as they saw themselves.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:17:15]:

Mhmm. And so that’s why later on, you talk about they use the, The revolutionary slogans, to China, you know, rally the masses because they know the masses sort of respond to that. Right? And they kinda, the politicians use that to their advantage. I get you. So it’s December 16, 1990. Aristide is, Haiti’s supposedly 1st democratically elected president in Haiti’s history, if I remember correctly. Right? Right. He’s got you say he’s got 67% of the 7% of the votes, lots of celebration in the capital.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:17:52]:

Can you think of five Key reasons Aristide got elected that first time around.

Michael Deibert [00:18:00]:

Oh, yeah. I mean, I think, You know, I I think the election of 1990 that brought Aristide to power was was the culmination of this collective struggle for democracy and representative government that began during the years of Duvalier and continued during the years of the successive military governments that followed him including, and and as well as the brief presidency of of Leslie Manigat. And I think, you know, a lot of foreigners, I I I feel They highly personalized this kind of collective struggle of all of these different groups in the in the person of Aristide when in my analysis, he was He was a symbol of that collective, not the, you know, not, it wasn’t about a single person. It was about all of these different groups that as as you know, I’m sure range from, you know, the communist aligned groups to more responsible members of the business sector to all all other kind of, elements. And I think That was you know? And I think 2 things that are are really important to to me. In the post Duvalier era. So after Baby Doc was overthrown in 1986, I think the logical partners for the international community, especially the Americans, We’re kind of the social democratic sector in Haiti that had helped bring about the fall of Duvalier. But instead, what the Americans looked at as their their logical of partners was the military and I think some of the more recalcitrant, and reactionary elements of the bourgeoisie and the private sector, which was really unfortunate.

Michael Deibert [00:19:35]:

And then with the overthrow of Aristide in 1991, like, whatever he became later and he became very awful, later. He became a very destructive force in Haiti. But Mhmm. But in 1991, he was the democratically elected president of Haiti, and I I think the people of Haiti it was owed to the people of Haiti to let them have the experience of that decision and decide for themselves what they thought about it. You know? Mhmm. And that was something that was stolen from them, with with the of some elements in the United States, and it was it threw everything into complete confusion. You know? Mhmm. And and I think it resulted in a questioning of the democratic process just completely that still continues to this day.

Michael Deibert [00:20:20]:

I I mean, you know, it was a really, tragic and and destructive event in the history of Haiti, I think. Mhmm.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:20:29]:

So so you so can you think of the the the because the people love lis. My audience love this just to kind of break it down for them. So you gave me one of them was basically a reaction to, the Duvalier, the Duvaliers. Right? That that dictatorship. Right? That was one. So another one where you say, US foreign intervention And manip and and and partnering with what groups inside the country to make to make him, and then what’s the 3rd one or 4th one you could think of? And if you could expand on them, then that would be great. I’ll of course, I’ll cut this part out. For sure.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:21:06]:

Yeah.

Michael Deibert [00:21:07]:

You know, I mean, I think, A lot of times you have this analysis, of foreigners that somehow Aristide was the 1st, representative of kind of, For lack of a better way of of putting it, the kind of broad underclass of Haiti that was, that became president. I mean, I don’t think that’s accurate if you look at the presidency the history of the presidencies of Haiti. He was he was certainly not, the 1st black president nor the 1st president of relatively modest means. But, you know, I think in in the aftermath of, this kind of nightmarish, you know, 19 year family dictatorship of the Duvaliers and then the the brief but extremely violent, the rule of of the military and and their allies in the late He’s in early nineties. Mhmm. I mean, I think, you know, a lot of people I mean, I I should issue this caveat. I mean, when this was going on, 1991, I was still in high school, So I was not in Haiti at the time, you know, but I gotcha. From from my discussions of of people who were very deeply involved in in in that era of Haiti’s politics.

Michael Deibert [00:22:10]:

I mean, I think people just wanted some breathing room, you know, to, and one one thing I think that was one of Aristides’ great, quotes, It’s not something that he certainly lived up to at all, but the idea of not of going from misery to poverty with dignity.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:22:26]:

Yeah.

Michael Deibert [00:22:26]:

Yeah. That is a a very reasonable, goal, I think, in a country like Haiti. I mean, obviously, not, you know, to just to just have people and and that’s one thing I have to say. And, you know, I mean, I I think we spoke about this slightly before, but I I always make a a point whenever I can when I’m in Haiti of of taking public transportation, you know, motor taxis, tap taps, things like that. And, You know, when you when you see the incredible struggle that the average person in Haiti has just to get from one day to the next and to to keep away complete financial collapse. It’s a heroic struggle every day, and I don’t know how I certainly don’t know if I would be able to do it for years years years, the way people in Haiti do it. And and the idea that there is great dignity in their struggle, and it often is not rewarded by the circumstances of the political and economic reality in Haiti. Mhmm.

Michael Deibert [00:23:22]:

It’s something that must change.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:23:24]:

Do we also have to be careful that we don’t romanticize their struggle to the extent that, you know, yes. We can appreciate their their resilience, a word I find problematic sometimes.

Michael Deibert [00:23:37]:

Me too.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:23:38]:

Referencing Haitians. You too. Right? So to what extent It is is it a question of they just don’t have any other choice but to keep on keeping on. Right? Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Deibert [00:23:54]:

Yeah. No. I agree. I mean I mean, obviously, they in in a sense, they don’t have a choice because, obviously, not everyone has the It means to go to the United States or go to the Dominican Republic or Canada to to seek a better life. I mean, the majority of people don’t, I would say. But one thing that’s always striking to me I mean, you know, one thing that’s troubling to me a lot of times when I hear American academics Some things like that speak about Haiti is, you know, these extremely impoverished neighborhoods like Cite Soleil or Martissants or Village De Dieux, They you know, the the reality of people in those neighborhoods, the the wealth of human potential in those neighborhoods, that that exists is is unbelievable. And the and the and the lack of, of Haiti being able to avail itself of that human capacity is one of the more tragic things. I sometimes see these neighborhoods, You know, they’re depicted in in the foreign press and in foreign academic this discourse sometimes as everyone in that neighborhood in a gang or something like that, when in fact, it’s really, like, maybe 10% of the population is carrying guns.

Michael Deibert [00:25:04]:

You know what I mean? And and 90% are are under the thumb of of these guys.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:25:09]:

Yeah. Mhmm.

Michael Deibert [00:25:10]:

And, I mean, there was you know, I mean, in cities you would be amazed at City Sollet at the people who are Interested and conversant young kids, I’m talking about, in the tech industry as kind of, you know, developers and things like that. I mean, they could Mhmm. They could You you could make City Soleil a hub for tech innovation in Haiti, and I’m not being sarcastic. I mean, people sometimes when I say that, they their mouths drop open, but I really Do believe that, but, of course, the the political, battles that have now collapsed into this, criminal anarchy to keep that from being realized.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:25:46]:

From being realized. Mhmm. So, can you think of a few policies? I know you said you were young during the administration. What what exactly did, 1.0 or 2.0 instituted what, what policies real policies did he institute that benefited, that he implemented that benefited on behalf of the Haitian people he was he supposedly represent. Can you think of anything? Mhmm. I know He his 1st reign was too brief. Yeah. But what did he actually get in the reforms that he promised, the masses.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:26:27]:

What did he actually put in place? Whether it was reversed later on or not, that’s fine. What did he do?

Michael Deibert [00:26:32]:

I mean, I would honestly say that that his most lasting legacy to Haiti, unfortunately, was the creation of the baz and the gangs in the slums. And that’s something that, you know, in in the eras of the or the, there were also armed, you know, irregular, forces supporting this or that government, and they were even back to, you know, and and other people with the and things. You you had a kind of tradition in Haiti of these, armed groups that would support various political actors. But the this model of kind of these youth gangs in in these very impoverished areas, I mean, that’s something that very much came up post 1994 with Aristide and Mabalas. And then when he was overthrown in 2004, the interim government It’s something that was incredibly stupid, which was, they fired all of these guys from the little Mickey Mouse no show jobs that they were getting some little money from from the state industries. So a lot of these guys, these gang leaders, you know, they would get, like, a little stipend from CAMAP or Telco or these state industries. And when the 2004, 2006 interim government came in, it fired all of them. So, of course, these guys were immediately, like, destitute.

Michael Deibert [00:27:45]:

And you had this kidnapping surge because everyone in the slums were starving. And but but what happened then, I I think in that post 2006 era was, you know, all of these different political groups looked at the buzz model that Aristide created and were kind of like, We wanna get some of that ourselves. And so it became this thing where all of these different political groups in Haiti have these, Thugs, that, are working for them. Actually, let me rephrase that. Not thugs, where where they where these different political forces in Haiti take advantage of the desperation of young men. And because of the socioeconomic Reality in Haiti, you have lots of young men without any sort of sustainable income for themselves. And anywhere in the world, that’s a recipe for problems, whether it’s Haiti or Baltimore or wherever. Mhmm.

Michael Deibert [00:28:38]:

You know, when you have a lot of young guys just hanging around with a lot of opportunity, that’s a that’s a recipe for trouble.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:28:45]:

Mhmm.

Michael Deibert [00:28:46]:

And that now, you know, we’ve gone now through I mean, it’s hard to believe more than 25 years of of that gang reality that gradually moved out of the slums and now, you know, has taken over must most of Port au sprints. And the I I think the kind of middle class and the the the upper class in Haiti were able to kind of ignore it as long as as it was mostly affecting Ciric Soleil, it was mostly affecting Ranvardin or whatever. But, you know, when operation Baghdad comes to Peischenville, all of a sudden, it’s a lot harder to

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:29:20]:

ignore it. Can you tell us about the one thing he I’m thinking of, Le Petit Porger de la Puisidans. Yeah. I think it was about, like, $4,000,000 or something like that. What what is explain to us what that was And what ultimately happened to that project?

Michael Deibert [00:29:38]:

Right. That was a that was a a kind of fund that was basically at the disposal of the president when I was Steve was president that doled out various, monies to projects, allegedly development projects around the country, and it was a a project that was really marked by a high degree of corruption. And so Quite famously when Jean Leopold Dominique, the the journalist who was slain in April 2000 had Aristide on his program, He grilled him really ferociously about that, much to to Aristides’ displeasure. And so that was, you know I mean, it’s certainly not, You know, Aristide did not admit political corruption in Haiti or or anything like that, but it was an example of during his term of when the, you know, Money was, by all accounts, not spent the way it should have been.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:30:27]:

Mhmm. Okay. I’m gonna try the five reasons again. Okay. Yes. It is.

Michael Deibert [00:30:33]:

Can I just ask one thing too just to make sure? I I if we can too, I I would like to talk about, you know, post Because a lot has happened since then.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:30:42]:

Oh, sure. Okay. Sure. Definitely. We just kinda wanna lay the groundwork. I hear you. People will, just imagine there are a lot of Haitians who have Almost no idea about what each of their presidents have done. As I’m actually Right.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:30:53]:

Incorporating that into my interviews Okay. So I can get The you know, my guess to say one thing whether, you know, whether it’s something that really helped or didn’t help you. Because most Haitians, they’ve admitted this to me that I’ve talked to. They have absolutely no Clue. They know the names of their presidents, but in terms of their policies Okay. What they actual and then they’re surprised that some of them actually did stuff like Maguire. You know?

Michael Deibert [00:31:14]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:31:15]:

So yeah. So, on the what what can you give me a few reasons? Maybe I get away from the 5. Okay? What. Can you give me some reasons why the Aristide and Lavalas movement failed? Here’s why I’m asking you this, Michael. It It kinda looks like a phenomenon for me in Haitian history that I’ve come to describe it as, like, the Charlie Brown and Lucy syndrome. Right? So This this, you know, sense of hopefulness or whatever, whether it’s from the 2010 earthquake or after Duvalier. Right? You know, the Everyone sort of had this sense that, okay. This is a a one shot to get the democratic ball rolling.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:31:56]:

Right? And bam, it gets snatched away. Right? Yeah. So what what is that all about, Michael? And and and why did the Aristide and the Lavalas movement to you. What are some of the key takeaways for you why it failed?

Michael Deibert [00:32:11]:

Right. I mean, I think I think what happened was, you know, after after the coup of 1991 and the the de facto period of 1991 to 1994 when, of course, you know, many of of not just Aristides supporters, But supporters of the democratic process in Haiti in general were murdered in in Haiti in in really terrible ways. I I think they, You know, the the man in the party came back. I mean, of course, familavalas as a party wasn’t constituted until a couple years later. But I I think they came back and were basically like, okay. We’re not when to let that happen again, which was, of course, the entire reasoning behind Duvalier creating the Tonton Macoute as well because he was convinced the army was going to try and overthrow him as they had with with many of his predecessors. And, you know, I think when you step outside of that constitutional order, when you step outside of to traditional order. When you step outside of this idea of, okay, well, I can’t trust the constitutional process, so I’m going to Extracostitutionally kind of insulate myself against threats.

Michael Deibert [00:33:21]:

That right there is a is a recipe for kind of disaster, politically speaking, I think. And and, you know, the the the The fact that it it became much more about it became much less about kind of creating an equitable, society for Haitians and much more about kind of taking revenge, against, people, that the movement, and the party felt that they were, that, you know, were were there enemies or whatnot. And, I mean, it’s not a it’s not a a coincidence that some of the fiercest critics of This the latter incarnation of La Valas were people like Evans Paul and Gerard Pierre Charles who were quite close there, Aristide, in the mhmm, you know, late 19 eighties and early 19 nineties. And and, you know, I think That’s something we’ve seen multiple times in Haiti. I mean, you know, you have somebody like, like Martelly who comes in with a lot of of public support and a lot of international support. And something very similar happened in the sense of what it became was, you know, It it became this kind of free lunch for him and his cronies and later for PhDKs, his, his political party. So the it’s It’s almost as if the the benefits and the well-being of of the general population becomes secondary to sating the appetites of the person in the national palace. Mhmm.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:34:51]:

So flop, let’s, you know, let’s keep up with this foundational stuff before we get into the latest. So flop, was it a party, militia, or all of the above? Talk about the role of Schwab doing the Aristidea work.

Michael Deibert [00:35:05]:

Yeah. I mean

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:35:05]:

And what happened to that group anyway?

Michael Deibert [00:35:07]:

Did you

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:35:07]:

morph into something else?

Michael Deibert [00:35:09]:

I mean, Schwab was a a paramilitary organization, slash political party that was founded by, 2 guys, Louis Jodel Chamblaine and, and, To do Constant, Emmanuel To do Constant, in in you know, after the overthrow of Aristide, and they took a very active and vicious role in in terrorizing democratic, activists in Haiti from 91 to to 94. And, they did so with, the connivance of, sections of the US government, particularly the CIA. This has all been documented, you know, by very credible journalists and and things who were actually acting in some ways across purposes to the official policy of the US government under Bill Clinton. So you had you had elements of the US security, state kind of undermining the official US policy at the time, which is a a whole other problem, obviously. Mhmm. Because you’re supposed to have civilian control of the military and the intelligence services. And then when when Aristide came back in 94, it basically fell apart. You know, Total Constant came to the US where he was arrested for, you know, doing all kinds of shady business, then he was deported back to Haiti.

Michael Deibert [00:36:18]:

Louis Jour del Chamblin went to the Dominican Republic and then played a very active role in the two thousand for rebellion that overthrew Aristide. And I believe he’s now living back in the grand dance, if I’m not mistaken.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:36:31]:

Mhmm. Yeah. The the, let’s go back to Haitian history. Remember the Marie Jose. Right? We used to chase down the maroons or runaway slaves. And then you just talked about flap In the Aristide era, then we have the and the Duvaliers, and then we have the gangs today. Right? Yeah. So whether we’re talking about state sanction or finance or These groups financed by oligarchs.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:36:59]:

Have you thought about what kind of true lines you see or the patterns on how these sort of non state actors Come into being throughout Haitian history. I know it’s not unique to Haitian history. Right. But have you thought about that? Like, what is that? What what What is what are these groups just popping up here and there, all about?

Michael Deibert [00:37:21]:

Yeah. I mean, I think What we what we’ve seen, you know, throughout Haitian history is that there’s this extremely narrow avenue of advancement, for the people on the downside of advantage, which is the majority of Haitian society, obviously, people who are living on in extremely precarious positions. And they they have been exploited by kind of 2 different actors historically. I mean, the political, of course, as we’ve discussed, but also economic. And, I mean, you know, a lot of the a lot of the wealthiest people in Haiti, I mean, they they did not make Their millions or in some cases, their billions in a normal way, I think, that we would think of as a normal way in a lot of other countries. I mean, they basically have, you know, extremely brutal monopolies. And and one other thing that’s also very strange, and there are exceptions to this. I mean, Haiti, you know, did used to have something of a manufacturing industry in the seventies eighties and and much less so now, but a lot of the guys who who are are among the wealthiest in Haiti.

Michael Deibert [00:38:22]:

I mean, they make their money through importing things, so not really producing anything in Haiti, which is really kind of unusual, even for the developing the so called developing world. And and, you know, they they have also cynically used this this this kind of desperation. So, yeah, I mean, it’s it’s it’s a it’s a self perpetuating cycle in some ways because the continuing use of these illegal armed groups Keeps up the insecurity and the instability, which in turn, prevents a kind of normal economic system from developing whereby people could, you know, instead of becoming a gunman in Soles 19 that could have a job. You know? That was making them a decent living.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:39:05]:

Right. Mhmm. I I find in your book too the the relationship between I wanted to go back. You mentioned him briefly, Evans Paul’s Yeah. Relationship with, The former mayor of Port au Prince, if I recall. Yeah. What was the how is that relationship he had with, talk a little bit about that relationship with Aristide and how it sort of manifested itself, you know, in a broader political decisions that that that they made. What what about that? What about that relationship? Talk about that.

Michael Deibert [00:39:37]:

Yeah. I mean, Caplim as, you know, Evans Paul is known in in Haiti. I mean, he was an interesting in character. He was a a journalist and a playwright who was the he was Aristides’ campaign manager actually in the 1990 election and an extremely eloquent and kind of Farouche, public speaker. And, you know, when the 1991 coup happened, Aristides fled to the United States. Eventually, Iris, Evans Paul remained in Haiti for a large portion of the time and got beaten very severely by the the military at one point. I believe he had a skull fracture, actually, if I’m not mistaken. And he’d also been He’d also been beaten very severely under the rule of Prospera Real, a couple years previously.

Michael Deibert [00:40:19]:

And then in which in in what is a pattern when Aristide Came back, you know, in 94. I think he looked at Evans Paul and thought he was getting a little too big for his riches and spread all All kinds of colonies about him that he was involved in the coup d’etat and things like that, which is something he also did with Gerard Pierre Charles later and East and a whole bunch of other people. And, and you know that then they broke apart and and, Evans Paul became a A very fierce critic of Aristide and eventually had the last laugh because he saw him overthrown in 2004 and then briefly served as prime minister as as you know. Mhmm. So, yeah, I mean, he he was a interesting, complicated figure. Mhmm.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:41:01]:

The new they call them the, draconian reforms under the Clinton administration Yeah. That that was imposed as as a condition for Aristides, return to power.

Michael Deibert [00:41:13]:

Yeah.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:41:13]:

Can you give me some we all know about the rice Yeah. And the tariffs. I think it was like It was, like, something like 40, 50% before. Yeah. And then it had I still had to drop it to something like below 10%. Right?

Michael Deibert [00:41:27]:

Single digits. Like, the

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:41:28]:

single digits.

Michael Deibert [00:41:28]:

Very low single digits. Yeah.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:41:30]:

Yeah. So what what was the we all know the effects of that, but Talk about the sort of, neoliberal draconian reforms. The IMF Bank was involved in this too. Right?

Michael Deibert [00:41:41]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:41:42]:

Well yeah. Mhmm. And I mean It’s not just the Clintons. Yeah.

Michael Deibert [00:41:45]:

Yeah. And the situation is okay. Haiti Is is a country that has a, as we all know, a very high degree of urban poverty. So when you drop, the when when you have an agricultural sector that is dependent on, say, the production of of rice for local consumption for consumption within Haiti. When you immediately, flood the market with with imported rice from places like Arkansas that is effectively sold at a much lower price than domestically produced rice. Well, that obviously cuts into the bottom line of of these these very tiny margins these local farmers are experiencing anyway. So that resulted in a lot of people abandoning local agriculture and moving into cities like Port au Prince, where they had to live because they didn’t have any money. They had to live in neighborhoods like Bel Air or Cite Soleil or, you know, Grand Ravine.

Michael Deibert [00:42:35]:

And and then, you know, it’s not as if they moved to a city that has a huge vibrant economy where there’s a whole lot of jobs for them. So you had a lot of people who who moved from what I think would be, you know, a kind of rural poverty to a much more desperate urban poverty. And there’s their sons and daughters are the ones who who formed the 1st generation of the gangs in the late nineties and early 2000 because Mhmm. They were born into this situation in which there was poverty and no seeming way out of it.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:43:08]:

When was the last time you

Michael Deibert [00:43:09]:

were in Haiti, Michael? I was in Haiti in January.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:43:12]:

Okay. Do you have the sense that the people are over this sort of messianic politics? That they’re looking for one savior, or what what what is your sense of where the public, is thinking in that regard?

Michael Deibert [00:43:29]:

I mean, I think I think they’ve been over over that for a long time, to be honest with you. And I think the last I I mean, I think that was kind of killed by their experience with Aristide when he came back in 2000 and turned out to be much more terrible than his worst critics would have imagined. And now it’s like, if you look at the diminishing returns in terms of people participating in in elections, I I think there’s a great cynicism about politics in general, not just the messianic brand of politics. And if you look at the I mean, One thing I always say to people is, you know, whether you whether you ultimately agreed with their policies or not, when I first started going to Haiti in the mid nineties, The people I met there who were involved in the political world, Jean Claude Bajot, Gerard Pierre Charles, Rene Theodore, people like that, they were brilliant people. I mean, they were extremely educated, people who spoke a couple languages. They could speak intelligently about different economic and political models. And today, I mean, the political world in Haiti is dominated by people who I would say are are by and large worse than the average person on the street, not better. I mean, they’re just, you know and and that’s really I mean, I think people in Haiti see that.

Michael Deibert [00:44:44]:

I wouldn’t wanna put words into the mouth of of of the Haitians, but that’s my impression anyway. And I think there’s a great deal of of of skepticism over, politics. I mean, you have to think, you know, you had, you know, from from 1994 to to 2004, basically, The, in unwrapping in the 1st presidency of Brene Preval into this. You had this kind of, leftist so called current dominating Asian Politics then from 2010 to, sorry, 2011 to 2,000,021,021, basically, you had a kind of Center right populist current with PhDK with Mickey and then Jovenel, dominating Haitian politics. And look at the The country just kept going down, down, down, down through both of those, mandates. And I don’t think people looking at at at the politicians expect a whole lot on them anymore, unfortunately.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:45:40]:

I I looked at the while back at the, the participation rate of voters, for Jovenel before he got assassinated. It was something like less in the single digits. Right? Like so I think

Michael Deibert [00:45:55]:

the whole turnout for that election, like, it the whole voter participation, I think, was 20 something percent, which is still extremely low. Yeah?

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:46:03]:

Yeah. But for him, those people who actually voted for him was, like, in the single digit.

Michael Deibert [00:46:07]:

Yeah.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:46:07]:

Yeah. It’s crazy. So, 1 last question, and then we can we can talk about what you wanna talk about. So now granted Aristide wasn’t a and and because I don’t wanna get you know, have people correct me on this. And then we’re I know we’re discussing 20th century Haitian politics. So The analogy I’m about to ask is may or may not be precise, but was prevail’s administration an example of of Meaning that Aristide was, you know, sort of the puppet master. Can you can you talk about that, about the And sure. Being really Aristide shadow government manifested, or was it more nuanced than that?

Michael Deibert [00:46:50]:

I think it was more nuanced than that. And I think, In both of his his terms as Haiti’s president, Rene Proval, for all his his flaws, he was a person who I don’t think was, He was comfortable in dealing with institutions. The idea of, you know, the police were more or less, especially in the 2nd term, the police were more or less able to behave as police in Haiti. They weren’t kind of just this praetorian guard for the imperial presidency. And I think, you know, the The problem with Preval’s first term is on one level, you know, he was dealing with the the daily reality in Haiti, which even if it was at peace, the daily reality of Haiti would be extremely daunting for any politician, I think, when you look at, you know, the unemployment, the poverty, all of the natural degradation of the environment. But I think he was, you know, being consistently undercut by Aristide during that 1st term because Aristide didn’t want him to from, you know, arrival. And, and I and I think that hurt, you know, some of what he could have accomplished. In his 2nd term, I mean, I think some people forget even though it wasn’t that long ago.

Michael Deibert [00:47:59]:

I mean, Preval was reelected as this figure who after the horror of operation Baghdad, so after Aristide is overthrown in 2004, you have the gang wars going on from two 1004 to 2006, where police are being decapitated every day and people’s bodies are being burned in the street, kidnapping. And Preval came back in 2006 as a figure within whom both the kind of Pepla Ambalaville and the and the bourgeois could meet. And and when he was being interviewed shortly after he won his election, He he used a a metaphor, which I think is very interesting. He said that Haiti was like a bottle that was resting on its neck and would topple over at any time, and that his job as president was to turn it over so it was resting on its base. In other words, the majority of the population. And, you know, I think When I was in Haiti in the summer of 2009, I have never been more optimistic about the country. I mean, they had, I I was really disappointed When Proval got rid of Michel Pierre Louis as

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:49:03]:

I lost you. Can’t hear you, Michael.

Michael Deibert [00:49:20]:

Hey. Sorry. I don’t know what happened.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:49:22]:

Hey. Technology. Right? Yeah.

Michael Deibert [00:49:25]:

I don’t know where it cut me off.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:49:27]:

Mhmm.

Michael Deibert [00:49:28]:

You are talking about glowingly about Queval. Okay. Yeah. So what what I was saying was so when I visited Haiti in the summer of 2009, I was never more optimistic about the place. I mean, there was this kind of gentle forward momentum, that was going on then that you you saw some foreign investment. The country, relatively speaking, was at peace. There wasn’t a whole lot of political or criminal violence. People were very cited about the carnival that was going to happen this year, rather the coming year.

Michael Deibert [00:49:58]:

And then, of course, the earthquake of 2010 happened, which which brought the country back to below 0, in in a in a really terrible way. Mhmm. So, I mean, I think It’s it’s one of those big questions in history. You know? What what would Haiti have looked like had the earthquake not happened? And, like I said, despite his flaws and eccentricities as a political leader, I mean, I think in in in some ways, Preval Preval was not as I said, he was not threatened by the idea of of autonomous institutions within the Haitian state the way a lot of Haitian leaders are, and he was also not adverse to to kind of I mean, I I think he his his kind of international diplomacy, I think, was typified by the fact that he maintained good relations with both George w Bush and Hugo Chavez, which is not an easy thing to do, back in the day.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:50:52]:

Yeah. So what, Michael, did you do you have some clips or or or audio clips that I could include And this particular episode that you think might be relevant to what we’ve talked about or what you want to talk about next?

Michael Deibert [00:51:09]:

It it’s funny. I mean, during my, well, during the early 2000, all of my recordings were on, like, microcassettes, like actual physical cassettes. So I haven’t had a chance to digitize them or anything like that. I really should, though, because there’s amazing I mean, there’s firsthand reporting I mean, my interviews of La Bagne and Tupac and D’Villy, all these guys from Cite Soleil and Aristide and Evans Paul and all these People Oh, wow. Yeah. So, I wish, I wish I knew how to do that, but I’m not that tech savvy, unfortunately. I mean, there’s there’s the long With that? Yeah. I

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:51:46]:

can I can help you with that?

Michael Deibert [00:51:48]:

That would be good. I would I would like that. I I there is, Well, there’s the long interview I did that is on SoundCloud with with Jovanelle. That’s in Creole, of course. I mean, I know your listeners speak and understand Creole, but I haven’t had a chance to I haven’t had a chance to I I really wanted to put it online on, like, YouTube with with subtitles so, you know, English speakers could understand it because I I realized that most people probably Understand what he’s saying outside of Haiti, and they should just for historical record purposes. Yeah.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:52:17]:

Because because this this This podcast is actually going to be part of, Deluxe Records.

Michael Deibert [00:52:24]:

Yeah.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:52:25]:

I think I told you about that before, so that that would be great to kind of, you know, digitize all of that. So I’m happy to help. We could we could always do that. We’ll talk about that after. So what what do you think of, what did you wanna talk about? Said you wanted to talk about post Aristide. Right? What is the

Michael Deibert [00:52:43]:

I mean, any anything you

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:52:45]:

yeah. Sure. Go ahead.

Michael Deibert [00:52:47]:

Oh, I mean yeah. I mean I mean, I think when you look at at the ongoing and recurring problems in Haiti, I mean, one one thing you you realize is is is that there’s a couple of re recurrent themes. I mean, one of them is is, you know, this incredible impunity that that Prevades, kind of the body politic and the the elite kind of business sectors of the country whereby, you know, People, a lot of politicians, not all, but many of the politicians in Haiti, they get involved in the in the kind that world by using, you know, the buzz to convince people to vote how they want them to vote. And then when they’re in that world, they use it as a kind of cloak of impunity to to pillage and to settle scores.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:53:35]:

Mhmm.

Michael Deibert [00:53:36]:

And and that’s something that’s been going on for for many years, and and they do this often without any kind of There’s no there’s no price to be paid for doing that, you know. And and sometimes, you know, there’s There’s people will wind up in jail for this or that, but it’s rarely through any kind of transparent political transparent legal process. I mean, for example, when in the early 2000, when Prosperaville was clapped in jail by Aristide, I mean, certainly, there are Several things that happened during Prosperoville’s presidency that warrant, legal investigation and probable prosecution. However, that’s not how it was done. You know, he was just, like, tossed in jail because some judge was bullied into writing in the diaper of it, basically. And and it and it continues that that way now, I think. I mean, You know, the the the Petrocarib scandal, for example, and all of the attendant scandals of corruption are real scandals that really do, necessitate a kind of deep investigation, but the process within Haiti senate, particularly was was was extremely politicized, and I think kind of what and I’ve said this for many years, what I would like to see happen in Haiti. So in the In the aftermath of the 30 years civil war in Guatemala, which killed somewhere around 200,000 people, one of the mandates that was written into the peace accords that ended that war was the creation of a body to investigate corruption and illegal armed groups and their links to political on economic actors.

Michael Deibert [00:55:07]:

It was known by a Spanish language, acronym, CICIG, c I c I g.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:55:12]:

Mhmm.

Michael Deibert [00:55:12]:

And that operated for quite a number of years and had Extraordinary success in chipping away at this kind of culture of corruption and impunity in Guatemala, which is also a very violent country, you know, and, you leading to and including the arrest and prosecution of a sitting vice president and sitting president in Guatemala. And this was, you know, it was an entity that was written into this peace accord. It was written under the aegis of the United Nations, but there were local prosecutors working on it, local security officials working on it. So it was really, a part a positive partnership, in terms of the Guatemalan state, and the international community at large. And when I hear that the solution for the international community, the problem of Haiti, is sending a 1,000 Kenyan troops there who who will be outgunned massively by, like, the 14,000 on gang members in Port au Prince. And they think that is somehow going to be a long term, solution. Well, we’ve seen this before. You know, we sent, there was a peacekeeping mission sent in 1994 to supposedly disarm the the attaches.

Michael Deibert [00:56:20]:

There was another one sent in, 2000 for to supposedly disarm the gangs. And, none of that has has changed much because the The fundamentals that create that situation in the 1st place, corruption and impunity remain. So I think there should be some entity like that in Haiti that is tasked with tackling these underlying causes of this instability. Because the gangs and the slums, they are not the they are a manifestation of the failure of the political and economic class and the international community. They’re not the cause of it. You know? Mhmm. And I think that’s something that that international The observers often get wrong. They they put the you know, there’s a reason, there’s a cause for the creation of this vast army of desperate young men in the poor neighborhoods of Port au Prince, and that cause is what has to be addressed.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:57:12]:

And that causes a a a group of elite.

Michael Deibert [00:57:16]:

Yeah. And I’m using the the terms of elite very broadly as in people with with both, economic advantages and also access to the political system, you know, access to various parties in the political system because I mean, p you know, more recently, I mean, PhDK were certainly neck deep in in the buzz phenomenon during their existence so far, but so have a lot of other parties been. I mean, sometimes I read about it as if, you know, it blah blah blah blah blah blah were the only ones who ever were involved in this kind of gangsterism, which is very not true. I mean, it’s a more pervasive, phenomenon than that, unfortunately.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:57:53]:

So if these are leads or oligarchs, whatever you wanna call them, or at the, You know, the root of the problem, the political problem. Can you name names as a reporter? Who are you talking about exactly? Until we know who these people are instead of this abstraction, I don’t think, you know, they’re gonna continue doing what they’re doing. Can you name names in every quarter?

Michael Deibert [00:58:16]:

I’ve written in in great detail, I mean, about the political different political actors that and political parties that have used, you know, buzz and and mobs and things like that. And I’ve written also, you know, about, different, economic actors who who have used them and have been accused been accused of using them in terms of

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:58:36]:

me a few. Sure. What is some of the most notorious ones you could think of?

Michael Deibert [00:58:38]:

I mean, you know, I mean, when we’re talking about the when we’re talking about the political world, I mean, there’s been a a ton of reporting and on the not not just by me. I mean, by if you look at the the reporting of Radio Metropole, of Les New Valiste, of Walter Press, of all these Haitian, news outlets. You know, there’s there’s obviously documentary of of Levallos and PHDK using different, you know, muscle, in extremely anarchic and in most countries what would be illegal ways, okay Mhmm. To to kind of enforce. But also, I mean, if you look at, for example, Paylock, Paylock was, something that was a violent armed strike that forced people to and, you know, you can say, I don’t like Jovanal. Jovanal should go. He’s a part of this corrupt system or whatever, and that’s all perfectly legitimate. But, I mean, for, Paylock was a was an arm Strike along the lines of, like, what the FARC would have done in Colombia are saying, which is like you’re staying home or we’re gonna kill you.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [00:59:40]:

Mhmm.

Michael Deibert [00:59:41]:

You know? And that that is A different thing than simply just protesting against the government you don’t like, I think. And When I when I when I read sometimes about instances like Paylock, I mean, I’m sure sorry. I mean, I’m sure your your listeners will know that Paylock was this kind of arm strike against Drogon House government that happened a a year or 2 into his term. You know, when when you read about these, some, you know, accounts of that in the in in above by foreign observers, they seem to say it’s very approving. Well, I mean, I I was in Haiti during periods of of pay lock, and believe me, it was not pleasant for the population there to to live, you know, because people in in Haiti are often on on the the balancing act between total economic collapse and and not. So if you can’t go out and sell your mangoes in the street for an afternoon, that can be catastrophic. You know? So, I mean and I think that’s something that I haven’t I haven’t seen that philosophy, changed very much anymore except in this. And I think this is a very important distinction that has happened in the last couple of years.

Michael Deibert [01:00:52]:

The the political and economic actors use these gangs for years years. And then with the collapse, it started before the assassination of Jovanal for sure. But after the assassination of Jovinal, these gangs became more and more and more powerful. So now they have something of a of an equilibrium with their, political former political and economic patrons where they are not as dependent on their support anymore. They are operating with a much greater degree of autonomy than they did 10 years ago. So that’s why you have, you know, Katza Mauso and Casie Barillet, are are more or less able to kind of go along and do what they want. Same with Saint Saigon, same with the the gang in, and the and the and the in in the gang in, Ranravin and the Chris La gang in in. So this is, kind of this This monster that has been created by this political dysfunction has now become much more powerful than it was even 5 years

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:01:55]:

What areas of Haiti has not been affected by the gangs as much as other areas.

Michael Deibert [01:02:07]:

I mean, from my understanding, you know, I I don’t think they’re as prevalent in, say, the far west. So in areas like Mont Saint Nicolas, Jean Rabel, Cap Haitien is still Cap Haitien has gangs and has criminal activity around it, but it is not at a level where it, it completely derails the living of ordinary life like it is in, in in porta perens, for example. I I believe, Jacque Mel is still relatively peaceful, Jacque Mel and its environs, but, of course, getting there is like taking your life in your hands because you can’t You have to drive past Grand Ravine and and Villej de Dieu to go to CaFou to go to, to Jacmel. So I think the only safe way to go there these days is is via airplane, which is obviously not something that people can avail themselves of Mhmm.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:02:56]:

And I understand too that people are using boats to get around the roadblocks and so on for them to go about the to do their business. They they use the well, because

Michael Deibert [01:03:08]:

and the thing is is that is not even safe because the gang in Village du Deux, Saint Saigon, they have fast boats, and they have they have robbed people on the sea in the water. I have video of it, actually. And, you know, so that there and that’s how one of the ways that, Izzo and Mano, the 2 gang leaders from Village De Dieu. That’s one of the ways they ferry, their guys up to the Cote d’Azecardan where they’re having these various fights. You know, they’re on Route National 1 and and stuff.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:03:36]:

They do it by by boat. Do some of these gangs operate like the way, say, Hamas does? Like, do they provide services to to the local people, or is it pretty much all, you know, terrorizing everyone?

Michael Deibert [01:03:50]:

I mean, that has always been, Historically, the ethos of of of these gangs and I and I used to be very hesitant to call them gangs. I would call them kind of illegal armed groups. Now they kind of have very much more the esprit de corps of of of gangs, I would say. But, yes, they they did, produce some, you know, material benefits for the communities they operated in. Right? And that was one of the ways of keeping a community on on your side, of course. Nowadays, I mean, they still they still, I think, to some degree do that, but they have become enmeshed in a much more in a much more garish kind of violence that is much more reminiscent to me of something like ISIS, whereas, like, it’s about butchery of human bodies. And I mean, the videos I have from from, you know, areas like Quadi Bouquet, I mean, they’re really horrific. It’s like, video after video of, you know, people being dismembered of body parts, of of guns being put on corpses in, like, a weird pyramid.

Michael Deibert [01:04:58]:

It’s really not something I ever saw before. And I mean, there was 1 back in the day, I remember there was one instance when, A gang leader called Herve Jean killed a gang leader called Labanier in the Boston section of City Solet. And he he and his guys, you know, supposedly ate part of, Labanier. And that was something that was horrific that people talked about for years years afterwards. And now that shit happens all the time. And and that’s

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:05:24]:

new. Wow. So if you were to do one thing To to see a difference in what’s going on in Haiti right now. If this this giant hand that sort of, you know, goes into Haiti, what would it need to match to for you to see a market difference in in in the lives of of of, you know, the population, which which which we always come back to, right Yeah. At the core of this. What one thing do you think should be done to to make a difference. And and is it security? Is it is that the first thing, that would make a difference.

Michael Deibert [01:06:07]:

I would say I would say there’s there’s a twofold response to that question, which is that I I don’t think without the physical security of people that anything can change because you have a situation now where you can’t, you know.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:06:21]:

I agree.

Michael Deibert [01:06:22]:

You can’t you can’t drive north out of Port au Prince. You can’t drive south out of Port au Prince, and you can’t drive east with any level of safety. So, You know, the people in the capital are basically prisoners, of the capital. It’s kind of like the mask of the red death in, you know, in, in, Edgar Allan Poe. I mean, this kind of danger keeps creeping closer and closer. But at the same time, I I think that The physical security and the force of arms by the state. Number 1, you need to have a state to impose that force of arms, and we’re a 1000000 miles outside the constitution now. I mean, Ariane Rhee has no legal or constitutional right to be running the country.

Michael Deibert [01:07:01]:

And on the on the other hand, his critics like the Montana group have no legal or constitutional right to run the country either, and they just wanted it handed over to them because they think they deserve it for some reason. So I think what you need is a little bit of what I alluded to before. You need some entity like this anti corruption body that existed in Guatemala that as the authority to investigate the kind of motors of of this insecurity, which are much beyond just some poor guy in in Martissant with a with a gun. The the forces that are causing that scenario to exist are are way above

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:07:35]:

that. So so so bigger guns and with the judiciary backing being backed by by bigger guns because you can’t just have the judiciary taking care of this. Right? Right. You have to meet the gangs on their terms, right, with bigger guns. Don’t you have to do that first in terms of physical security?

Michael Deibert [01:07:59]:

One thing, though, that I think is important to to make a distinction, though, is that not all Not all of these leaders of these armed groups are the same. I mean, in the sense of you have some who I think would be much more willing to kind of deal with an entity that has bigger guns, so to speak, to avoid confrontation and extermination, and you have others who wouldn’t. You know? So I think that’s something that a lot of times the international community gets wrong about Haiti. They they kinda paint them all with the same brush, Like, they’re all the same person when that’s not the case. You know? Right. And, and I think, you know, more than like I said, the the the whole The anti corruption body that I have in mind, I mean, that would be a it would be a joint effort by Haiti and the international community. It would not just be 1 or the other, and it wouldn’t be it wouldn’t be imposed from the outside. It would be something that would give a blanket of protection to the honest actors in the Haitian judiciary, in the Haitian police who who want to do their job but are too often undermined because, you know, it turns out that Whatever gang they’re prosecuting or or or sorry, prosecuting and and trying to to take down is in fact in league with their boss or in league with some, you know, Powerful politician.

Michael Deibert [01:09:13]:

I mean, there’s there’s a very famous, case that I talk about or or not as famous as it should be though that I write about in my 2nd book, Haiti Will Not Perish, about a a police officer named Joaquin Calixte, who, you know, in Martissant, arrested a guy with a car full of illegal weapons. And 2 deputies, serving deputies, said he was working for us. We’re gonna kill you for doing that. And he was killed. And they never and and the the chamber of deputies thought so little of the service of this police officer. They refused to even lift the immunity of these, 2 deputies to allow them to be prosecuted.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:09:49]:

Mhmm.

Michael Deibert [01:09:51]:

So

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:09:52]:

So what did the people somebody who’s on the ground like you often. What do the what do you sense you get that the people want? What’s the number one thing that they want right now? Is it freedom of movement? Is that, like, Uppermost. Because I have family members there, and they say that’s, like, the biggest thing for them is, you know, they have to every day, they have to negotiate how How they go to the market, how they do x, y, and z. Is is immobility, like, the primary thing, on the minds of of the masses in general that you come in contact with.

Michael Deibert [01:10:27]:

It’s very interesting because I often hear these parallels being drawn between, Haiti and El Salvador, which as you know is a country that also had a bad gang problem. Mhmm. The difference, however, is even in the worst eras of of gang violence in El Salvador. There was never a neighborhood where the Salvadoran police could not enter. You know? And and the Salvadoran gangs, would never I mean, to attack a police convoy or something like that would be considered a suicidal and extremely crazy thing to do. Whereas in Haiti, that happens all the time. You know what I mean? There there are huge swaths of the the capital where the police are not present and can’t go in. And, Yeah.

Michael Deibert [01:11:07]:

I think, you know, you you you must have a final authority in terms of force of arms in the country, which has to be the official state in authority. It can be whoever, you know, gang leader, whoever, who says I am the authority here. No society can function like

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:11:25]:

Right.

Michael Deibert [01:11:26]:

So and and, you know yeah. And and and I think that’s you know, the the the freedom of movement is one thing. And and by freedom of movement, we also mean freedom Freedom not to get kidnapped just because you’re going to the market or whatever, which was also something that terrifies people. And also, you know, just Most people wouldn’t want to live leave Haiti if they didn’t have to. They just want some ability to make a dignified living there. And, You know, with with the stabilization of the security situation, one would hope that that would stimulate further economic activity that would would enable people to stay and not be in total misery.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:12:02]:

Mhmm. Anything else? Any final thoughts, Michael, on this this chap this this book, Notes from the last testament.

Michael Deibert [01:12:12]:

Are we could are we ending the interview here or are we continuing?

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:12:15]:

Just No. We can continue. Okay. Okay.

Michael Deibert [01:12:17]:

Yeah. I mean, one one thing I would say is I mean, one aspect of Haiti that I think often gets overlooked in the discussion, of it abroad is How amazingly seductive a place it is. I mean, having been going there, I just had my kind of 26th anniversary of involvement in Haiti, last month, November. I was I first went there in November of 1997. And it’s just such an extraordinary country. I mean, when you visit a city like Jacque Malle where, Simon Bolivar sought refuge and Ramon Demeterio Betancis from Puerto Rico lived while he was pursuing independence for Puerto Rico and Cuba. When you go to a a city like Cap Haitien where you can you know, the way I can take you to Congo Square in New Orleans and point you to where jazz began, I could take you to of the citadel in Haiti and point you to where slavery ended. I can take you the the the forts that exist in Mont Saint Nicholas, the French and the British and the Spanish.

Michael Deibert [01:13:14]:

These are all just, I mean, extremely captivating places that I think are incredibly moving tributes to the role that Haiti played in in the liberation of mankind over the years. And and the the fact that the example of Haiti really spread throughout the the Americas and throughout the hemisphere and and and inspired people. And I think that is the reason I mean, that’s one of the reasons I called my 2nd book, Haiti Will Not Perish, because I I really believe that there is, still as bad as things are now, you still have the seeds of a potential renaissance of the country. And and One of the reasons that I mean, if you go to Circe Soleil and you talk to the kids there, the average people, the the Faith they have in the resurrection of the country is extraordinary given the circumstances they are living in and given what they are living through. And I think that’s something that all of us, you know, who live abroad, who who want to help the country in some way and and care about its fate, that we need to to keep in mind is the example of of those young people is is really extraordinary and expiring, I think.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:14:25]:

What do you think, how do you think Haitians living in Haiti Seize Haiti compared to just for our Haitians, they view Haiti. Okay. Yeah. The what what what what what are qualitatively do you see the the differences is the similarities. Whether they overlap, what what do you see the differences between in terms of how to fix? Because sometimes I see when I talk to Haitians I’m I’m diaspora Haitian. Yeah. And they think they have all the solutions. Yeah.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:14:57]:

And then I always almost have to remind them, like, the people who are there, they have the solutions in their hand. They just Don’t have the resources Yeah. Where we can help on the outside, and we can provide them the resources in which for them to fix things politically.

Michael Deibert [01:15:13]:

I mean, I think that’s a really you you make a really good point there, which is that, you know, people obviously who are living on the ground in Haiti and experiencing the reality of Haiti day in, day out. They have a much deeper understanding of problems and potential solutions than any of us who live abroad do. Even and and, you know, certainly being born in Haiti, or being of Haitian parentage gives you some some insight. But if you’ve been away from the country for 25 years

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:15:39]:

Mhmm.

Michael Deibert [01:15:39]:

It’s not the same country as the one you left 25 years ago. And and the whereas the the people who are living That reality every day, you know, really do know. I mean, I talk to sometimes I mean, there’s different peasant groups in different areas of Haiti, you know, and And the the issues they’re confronting differ from one area of the north of Haiti to the other area of the north of Haiti. I mean, it’s that nuanced and that complex and and that granular. And I think What people abroad can do, as you said, is to basically be like, okay. What tools do you need to do what you think you need to do and to work to provide that to them. I mean, one of the great initiatives that I saw, and this is not something that obviously Creates, it it doesn’t change the economic level perhaps, but in in City Soleil, there was a an organization that still exists, the Combi of the text, City Soleil, which, you know, I brought lots of books down for their for their library that was right in the entrance, to City Soleil right across street from the now abandoned police station. And they were building for years this structure that was going to provide Cirque du Soleil with a a library, a really good library.

Michael Deibert [01:16:48]:

And that had to, you know, be ended because of the political violence. But that was something that those people in city completely thought up and started building themselves. Mhmm. And all they needed from somebody like me was, you know, every time I came down to Haiti, I would bring a couple suitcases full of books. And and so that, you know, that library grew and grew and grew. And it was really it was really making headway right about the time that, you know, Jovanal was killed and everything fell apart and it was off to the races and they had to stop construction moment. But it the I just use that as a kind of symbol for, you know, these local initiatives that just need our support from abroad. Mhmm.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:17:32]:

And something I wanted to ask you about, I’ve been doing some research, of the urban versus rural Population mobility that I thought was fascinating. I I wonder being on the ground whether you see you see the difference. And then 1990 in 1990, the urban as a percentage of the total population was 28%. Right? Yeah. For the As a percentage of the total population, 1990 was 71, Michael. Yeah. Okay? So the country in the 19 nineties, During the period you guys are talking about, it was more rural than it was urban. Yep.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:18:11]:

Fast forward to 2025, which is the projection I’m looking at it. This is from IMF. Rural population, percentage of total population, it dropped to 38%. Yeah. And then urban for projected 2025 is 61%. Do you see that on the ground?

Michael Deibert [01:18:32]:

Oh, absolutely. I mean, since I started going to Haiti in 1997, I mean, the explosion of area that Port au Prince Takes up is is beyond belief. I mean, in 1997, Jean Lucie, this, bit of Belleville, basically didn’t exist. I mean, you know, And the the fact that you you’ve seen this this influx of people, you know, fleeing the the poverty of the countryside for the hope of some sort of chance in Port au Prince. I mean, it’s just been it’s like Port au Prince is this vacuum that sucks up all the potential from all over in the rural areas.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:19:07]:

Mhmm.

Michael Deibert [01:19:08]:

And, and you wonder, you know I mean, I’ve often wondered myself as a as a foreigner. I’m kind of like, well, okay. Maybe living in, you know, the San Marco or some area around like that isn’t isn’t that great, but, like, Why would you rather live here than, like, city of Soles with the violence and stuff I don’t understand? And, and they you know, people tell me, well, you know, we have no chance here. And they think in in in the capital, they have some sort of a chance. And, you know, it’s just yeah. To see the the booming kind of populations of places like Port au Prince and Gwyneth and, and Cap. I mean, it’s really, it puts an extraordinary amount of pressure. It would put an Extraordinary amount of pressure on a on a place like Singapore, probably.

Michael Deibert [01:19:50]:

I mean, like, you know, and let alone Port au Prince. So, yeah, that’s That’s another legacy, unfortunately, I would say of, you know, these international community policies towards Haiti in the 19 nineties.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:20:02]:

Yeah. So so that that that whole term, Yeah. We’re gonna have to sort of revise that at some point, if not now. You know? Yeah. Because, the majority of population are urban now. Yeah. Not not rural. So, anything else on this? Just, Let me think so.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:20:24]:

Enough for a full episode. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Deibert [01:20:26]:

I’m trying to think if I have anything vaguely intelligent to say. Yeah. Just that I think I mean, you know, As I said before, I mean, I think historically, you know, Haiti has has served as this bright star in in the sky of this struggle for human liberation, and was much more advanced in that than the United States was at the time, which is the subject of my next book, which looks at relations between the US and Haiti in the in the in the 19th century. And, I think it still has the potential to be that. I still think it has an on this amount of human potential there. And I don’t think, we abroad should should give up on it and its incredible capacity to to do great things.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:21:13]:

Mhmm. Again, and also too, I I I tell the Haitians this all the time too. Like, don’t confuse The political basket case that’s Haiti in a lot of instances in its history, but the Culture remains. You know? Right. The culture is very strong, and I I I I find myself always have to remind people of that because they can get so, You know, down on on, you know, the political aspects networking, which is justifiable, but the culture Remains very, very strong and viable.

Michael Deibert [01:21:44]:

And what I always say to people is is look at Haitians. They go to Boston and Montreal and Santo Domingo and everywhere else in flourish.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:21:52]:

Yes.

Michael Deibert [01:21:52]:

You know? And it’s the same people. It’s the same people who were living in Haiti. There’s not some magic, solution. So they just need a they just need a chance.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:22:00]:

It’s the political soil that needs to change.

Michael Deibert [01:22:03]:

Yes. Exactly.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:22:04]:

Yeah. You know? Alright, Michael. So, what’s next for us? What do we what do you wanna do next?

Michael Deibert [01:22:09]:

Well, now, actually so I I turned in the, I turned in my book on on the relations between Haiti and the US in the 19th century. And after a little break to write and have Christmas and stuff like that. I’m going to begin a new book looking at the assassination of Jovanal.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:22:26]:

Oh, wow. Okay. Cool. I I saw that interview. I I that interview you did with him. Yeah. On SoundCloud. Okay.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:22:34]:

Cool. Alright. So I’ll, clean this up and, probably in the next couple of weeks or so, another month or so, I’ll I’ll publish it in the new year.

Michael Deibert [01:22:45]:

Awesome, Patrick. If if I can be of any other help or if you need anything else from me, just let me know.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:22:49]:

Okay. Appreciate it. Thanks, Matt.

Michael Deibert [01:22:52]:

Okay, Frohn. Take care. Enjoy the Florida sunshine.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:22:55]:

Yeah. Bye bye. Bye. I bet you miss Florida.

Michael Deibert [01:22:58]:

Oh, man. I miss the Caribbean, like, totally. Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:23:01]:

Just What was that? It’s the best Yeah. It’s the best of both worlds. Like, I we can’t go to Haiti. So I have I have mango trees. I have Zaboka in my backyard and and coke you know, a couple years. So the kids I have a 7 year old, and I cut one for him the other day. And as an American kid, of course, he says, can I use a straw? I was like, no, man. When I grew up in Haiti, man, you You just kinda chug it.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:23:26]:

You know?

Michael Deibert [01:23:27]:

Hey. Where where where is your family from in Haiti? I don’t think they ever asked you.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:23:31]:

Oh, my mom My mom, Simone Simone Jacques Meli. Okay. You know, my father, it’s, Port au Prince.

Michael Deibert [01:23:40]:

Okay.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:23:40]:

Yeah. And I was born in Port au Prince.

Michael Deibert [01:23:43]:

Jacques

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:23:47]:

Malvern. No.

Michael Deibert [01:23:50]:

Okay. Yeah.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:23:51]:

Mhmm. Yeah. So so Well, is it because of the the yeah. I bet. Yeah.

Michael Deibert [01:24:05]:

No, Matt. It was just it it was like when I was living in Paco. I had my house in Paco. And, and during the weekend, I had a little cottage, in, in Timoyage, just outside of Jacmel. And the weekends I would spend there, I would be in a hammock, like, eating lobster and conk on the beach. Like, I couldn’t afford to do that anywhere else in the world.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:24:25]:

Hey. I’ll excise this part to to blow because the the the the Haitian feminist man, they come after me. I’m cooking green women. So Oh, okay. So cool. How’s the PhD going?

Michael Deibert [01:24:41]:

It’s almost done, actually. It’ll be done in, May.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:24:44]:

Okay. Hey. So so Cabo or, Advanced Copy or even? Yeah. I’ll send one definitely.

Michael Deibert [01:24:51]:

I’ll send one to you.

Patrick Jean-Baptiste [01:24:52]:

Check it

Michael Deibert [01:24:54]:

out. Yeah. Okay,